The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

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unclefester

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Acts 7:5 (NKJV) "And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on. But even when Abraham had no child, He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him.

Hebrews 11:13 (NKJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth

Hebrews 11:16 (NKJV) But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Philippians 3:20 (NKJV) For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

The city Abraham was looking for was the heavenly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (NKJV) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Revelation 21:1-3 (NKJV) Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

The New Jerusalem is in the new heaven and earth.

Galatians 4:22-26 (NKJV) For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar; 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children; 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The physical land promise given to Abraham was already fulfilled. Can it be made any clearer ?

Joshua 21:43-45 (NKJV) So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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And Nicodemus didn't have to do anything even though he was seeking?
Jesus didn't tell Nicodemus to "do this now, this is in your hands". He marveled at the fact that Nicodemus, a teacher in Israel, was ignorant about the new birth. Nicodemus ought to have known about it and taught it.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
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Acts 7:5 (NKJV) "And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on. But even when Abraham had no child, He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him.

Hebrews 11:13 (NKJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth

Hebrews 11:16 (NKJV) But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Philippians 3:20 (NKJV) For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

The city Abraham was looking for was the heavenly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (NKJV) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Revelation 21:1-3 (NKJV) Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

The New Jerusalem is in the new heaven and earth.

Galatians 4:22-26 (NKJV) For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar; 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children; 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The physical land promise given to Abraham was already fulfilled. Can it be made any clearer ?

Joshua 21:43-45 (NKJV) So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.
Spot on! Excellent.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Why would it? It is still held by the gentiles. and will be until the return of Christ. This is what was prophesied. It will not unravel it. it supports it :p

The gentiles have held it since babylon came to power. Isreal has never since held it except as slaves who were granted permission by the gentile power to use it. It was never theirs
John 19
Jesus Delivered to Be Crucified

1Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him. 2And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head and arrayed him in a purple robe. 3They came up to him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” and struck him with their hands. 4Pilate went out again and said to them, “See, I am bringing him out to you that you may know that I find no guilt in him.” 5So Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. Pilate said to them, “Behold the man!” 6When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no guilt in him.” 7The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God.” 8When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. 9He entered his headquarters again and said to Jesus, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” 11Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

12From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar’s friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.” 13So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaica Gabbatha. 14Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour.b He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” 15They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16So he delivered him over to them to be crucified.

The Crucifixion
So they took Jesus, 17and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha. 18There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. 19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” 20Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek. 21So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but rather, ‘This man said, I am King of the Jews.’” 22Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.”

23When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his garments and divided them into four parts, one part for each soldier; also his tunic.c But the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom, 24so they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be.” This was to fulfill the Scripture which says,

“They divided my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.”

So the soldiers did these things, 25but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

The Death of Jesus
28After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” 29A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

Jesus Is Buried
38After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took away his body. 39Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesusd by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five poundse in weight. 40So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. 41Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. 42So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, since the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there.
 
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unclefester

Guest
Matthew 23:27-39

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation..... And it DID >>>>>> in 70 A.D.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!'"
 

PS

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Jan 11, 2013
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Jesus didn't tell Nicodemus to "do this now, this is in your hands". He marveled at the fact that Nicodemus, a teacher in Israel, was ignorant about the new birth. Nicodemus ought to have known about it and taught it.
And what should Nicodemus have known and taught?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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And what should Nicodemus have known and taught?
Did you read my post? Nicodemus ought to have known about and taught the new birth, regeneration.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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And what should Nicodemus have known and taught?
Jeremiah 24:7
I will give them a heart to know that I am the LORD, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 31:33
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh

Colossians 2:11
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ

Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit

1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b 16But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servantsc and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.’

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The Fellowship of the Believers
42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43And awed came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Did you read my post? Nicodemus ought to have known about and taught the new birth, regeneration.
Yes Nicodemus should have known about the new birth and his question to Jesus was, "How can a man be born a second time?"

Bear in mind "Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

So how did Jesus reply?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Yes Nicodemus should have known about the new birth and his question to Jesus was, "How can a man be born a second time?"

Bear in mind "Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

So how did Jesus reply?
The Kingdom of God had come upon them in the Person of Jesus...and the gifts He was about to pour out making them kings and priests were to come at Pentecost.

that was how anyone saw the Kingdom.

do you not see the Kingdom?

already/not yet:)
 
U

unclefester

Guest
Did you read my post? Nicodemus ought to have known about and taught the new birth, regeneration.
Exactly. John 5:46: For had you believed Moses, you would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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The Kingdom of God had come upon them in the Person of Jesus...and the gifts He was about to pour out making them kings and priests were to come at Pentecost.

that was how anyone saw the Kingdom.

do you not see the Kingdom?

already/not yet:)
That is not what Jesus said. Try verses 14, 15 and 16 of John 3.

I will give you a clue, it begins with "B"
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

talk talk talk talk
talk talk talk talk
talk talk talk talk
talk talk talk talk

standingthegap.org
now worries Tommy.
as DeSario says, Jesus didn't die for the righteous.
He came to call sinners.
so you'll be okay in your perfect righteousness






(not).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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That is not what Jesus said. Try verses 14, 15 and 16 of John 3.

I will give you a clue, it begins with "B"
post your point. i'm busy.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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post your point. i'm busy.
Jesus said twice that Nicodemus had to believe. I presume you do believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ because if you do not then you are destined for hell.

The point being you CANNOT be born again until you are born of the flesh, meaning that predestination as taught by Calvin is incorrect.

It is the BELIEVER who is predestined for Glory, not someone as yet unborn.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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J...The point being you CANNOT be born again until you are born of the flesh, meaning that predestination as taught by Calvin is incorrect.

It is the BELIEVER who is predestined for Glory, not someone as yet unborn.
When and where (in his writings) did Calvin teach that only the "unborn" are to be born again?

Who are you to say that an "unborn" cannot be a believer? Maybe because you equal faith with intellectual capacity?

John the baptist leaped of joy at the salutation of Mary - while yet in his mother's womb. Luke 1:41.

Oh and one more thing...it seems your advocating some kind of modalism as well (i e the Father and the Son are one and the same person - http://christianchat.com/878775-post716.html <-link). And you are talking about incorrect teachings...?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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When and where (in his writings) did Calvin teach that only the "unborn" are to be born again?

Who are you to say that an "unborn" cannot be a believer? Maybe because you equal faith with intellectual capacity?

John the baptist leaped of joy at the salutation of Mary - while yet in his mother's womb. Luke 1:41.

Oh and one more thing...it seems your advocating some kind of modalism as well (i e the Father and the Son are one and the same person - http://christianchat.com/878775-post716.html <-link). And you are talking about incorrect teachings...?
One thing at a time. Do you believe and accept the words of Jesus about the necessity of being born a second time, this time of the Spirit?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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Yes Nicodemus should have known about the new birth and his question to Jesus was, "How can a man be born a second time?"

Bear in mind "Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

So how did Jesus reply?
He did not tell Nicodemus to do this or that "and you'll be born again" or imply that saving faith was something within the natural ability of natural man to exercise at his own mere will.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Jesus said twice that Nicodemus had to believe. I presume you do believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ because if you do not then you are destined for hell.

The point being you CANNOT be born again until you are born of the flesh, meaning that predestination as taught by Calvin is incorrect.

It is the BELIEVER who is predestined for Glory, not someone as yet unborn.
forget Calvin for now....what does this say?

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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He did not tell Nicodemus to do this or that "and you'll be born again" or imply that saving faith was something within the natural ability of natural man to exercise at his own mere will.
Then you are denying the plain word of God and I have nothing more to say to you.