What's Wrong with Meeting People in Church or Through Family?

[Jullianna]

You need a source to tell you that if you put a man and women together in a situation they're supposed to have sex they're going to want to do it?

I don't need anything. I'm simply asking where you got your information, especially that the marriage of a man and woman guarantees a familial love, especially when the marriage of David and his first wife, Michel, would contradict that statement.

I know a lot of married women who don't want to have sex with their husbands.

 

[JGPS]

I agree... But I think that is because somewhere during the course of our conversation we replaced Reason with Rationality.

God is a very reasonable God. He gave us Jesus who is the way the Truth and the Life. A very reasonable thing for Him to do. Love is a reasonable thing. However, somehow something was lost and now it almost sounds like I'm saying God is unreasonable. Which is very strange. My bad.

It seems once our terms are defined more clearly we are on the same page for the most part.

After all one can be Logical yet irrational, that doesn't make God a contradiction. It just means that there are limits to the terms which we can use to Describe the Nature of God. God who has created suspensions of the Natural Law, ie Miracles, Grace, Forgiveness, did so out of Love, and not Logic.

This is where the way I use Logic and where you (and most people use logic) is different. I understand I should state my definition sooner. Logic is the whole of how and why someone thinks what they and does what they do and the sum of their intended purpose.

So yes, one can be logical, that is, consistent in their own system of thought, yet irrational in someone elses view.

What is the Greek word for Puppy dog infatuation?

Epithumia I suppose would be closests. Lust, desire without further substance.

So, the very foundation of a Marriage does not need to be there before people get married.

Which foundation? The covenant? The union itself?

Two God loving people can arbitrarily come together and figure it out because they will eventually learn to love each other.

It wouldn't be eventual, it would be de facto. And learn how to love each other more and better as time goes by, like every good couple.

 

[JGPS]

Or a general disagreement about the meaning of true love...

This is the heart of the matter, right here.

 

[JGPS]

I don't need anything. I'm simply asking where you got your information, especially that the marriage of a man and woman guarantees a familial love, especially when the marriage of David and his first wife, Michel, would contradict that statement.

I know a lot of married women who don't want to have sex with their husbands.

Oh, when one asks for a breakdown of the meanings and different kinds of love its hard choose just one. I was working roughly off Lewis's The Four Loves (agape, affection, familial love, eros)

David didn't live with Michel much though, I believe that was part of the problem there.

As for the last statement, I have heard of such things, but it is a somewhat alien thing to me. I know it happens though, the number of grown men I've had to explain basic things about eroticism and a woman's libido and such too is frustratingly high.

Though even then, I do kind of stand by what I've said. Universally the men I've had to talk to have problems with their women because they really never took the time to learn how she feels in different situations. If they spent more time considering the needs of their woman and meeting their needs they'd need not run into those problems.

 

[Liamson]

Its strange to me to think that two people could simply occupy the same space and therefore want to be together.

Also There is a fundamental shift in the perception of the reason for getting married.

It seems as if JGPS, wants to be married for the sake of marriage and all the trappings that go with it.

Whereas, I believe that a person can go their whole life without marriage, unless one particular person comes along and I find that we cannot be separated, therefore I marry them.


Marriage was created for man, not man for marriage. I was not designed to arbitrarily fulfill my duty to someone as their husband, for the sake of itself.


we live in a Culture that says, there is something missing if we are not keeping up with the Jones and getting married and having children and projecting the image of social success. But we are Christians, we do not need or want such a measure. We do not measure our success or failure by the mate we do or do not have. Our Success is in the Lord, and He is who we take pride in.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I don't need anything. I'm simply asking where you got your information, especially that the marriage of a man and woman guarantees a familial love, especially when the marriage of David and his first wife, Michel, would contradict that statement.

I know a lot of married women who don't want to have sex with their husbands.

Love is a choice.

Familial love is "family Love" which is born from natural family relationship and not really the kind necessary or intended for husband and wife. So inserting "familial" love into a EROS context is apples and oranges... but I realize some people just like to argue... not that anyone is doing that here.

If what was meant to say Philos Love--- which is friendship love and requires cultivation, I consider that to be a necessary component to the husband and wife relationship. Eros is the chemical love and yes SEX is required to cultivate this attraction since neglecting it over time has a negative a extinguishing effect. Agape is the uncondtional Love.

It IS POSSIBLE to DEVELOP Eros for a partner after cultivating Philos and doing such would be harmonizing with Agape.

A woman who does not want to have sex or refuses would be dishonoring marriage, God, her vows, and ultimately lacking or blatantly refusing to assume her responibility all three Love catagories.

 

[seoulsearch]

*Crawls across the screen, clawing and fighting for survival through every post.*

Almost made it... to... the end... of the thread...

*gasp*

AT LAST!!! I MADE IT!!! VICTORY!!!!

*immediately falls over and collapses*

(Could someone please bring me a large pizza and a Coke so that I'll have the strength to continue reading...)

 

[LightningClap0002]

How does one who has known it ever describe it to one who has not (not meaning you necessarily )? I can't find the words. Can you? It is much like my love for Christ, but not quite.

How can those who have admittedly never known something have an informed opinion about it? Seems much like a new parent who raises a child solely on their Dr Spock reference manuals without taking into consideration the wise counsel of parents/grandparents.

I'm not denying the existence your feelings, or the power of your feelings. I also have been in love; deeply in love, I gave her a ring, I only ever saw a future with her in it. I know what it feels like to lose it. What I'm suggesting is that those powerful feelings are in addition to love, maybe even a result of love(and the intimacy involved); not love itself.

 

[JGPS]

Its strange to me to think that two people could simply occupy the same space and therefore want to be together.

Given their opposite gender and of similar age and available, thats pretty much how sexual attraction works.

Also There is a fundamental shift in the perception of the reason for getting married.

But who is shifted and who is the shiftee?

It seems as if JGPS, wants to be married for the sake of marriage and all the trappings that go with it.

It is not good for man to be alone.

Whereas, I believe that a person can go their whole life without marriage, unless one particular person comes along and I find that we cannot be separated, therefore I marry them.

There is a popular country song to that effect. But unless one is or chooses to be a eunuch, marriage and family is very much part of their calling.

Marriage was created for man, not man for marriage. I was not designed to arbitrarily fulfill my duty to someone as their husband, for the sake of itself.

It never was arbitrary, it was for many good things, both personal and social.

we live in a Culture that says, there is something missing if we are not keeping up with the Jones and getting married and having children and projecting the image of social success. But we are Christians, we do not need or want such a measure. We do not measure our success or failure by the mate we do or do not have. Our Success is in the Lord, and He is who we take pride in

You live in a different culture than me. I see my culture as looking down on children and marriage in general. Constantly and in full force in fact.


I guess the big point is that romanticism and feelings of obsession don't make a good marriage. These things may be idealized by our culture, but our culture fails at marriage very severely.

You don't need someone you can't live without, you need someone who even when you cant stand Him and want him to go away you know that deep down, right or wrong in this situation, he cares about you and you are able to work things out. It's not the highs that kill marriages, its the lows.

You won't always feel like you can't live without him, even if you feel that way while you're dating.

 

[JGPS]

Well said BarlyGurl.

 

[JGPS]

...

Well said.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Its strange to me to think that two people could simply occupy the same space and therefore want to be together.

I think it was intended to be for a considerable longer duration than say... riding in an elevator. Thus two persons of opposite sex who have cause to develop cooperative relationship can then develop an attraction for each other, or one sided... happens all the time.

Also There is a fundamental shift in the perception of the reason for getting married.

I am wondering if you would please expand on what you are saying as it is vague... but I do want to understand what you mean, Please?

It seems as if JGPS, wants to be married for the sake of marriage and all the trappings that go with it.
Whereas, I believe that a person can go their whole life without marriage, unless one particular person comes along and I find that we cannot be separated, therefore I marry them.

It seems to me... you have a "sitting on the fence" attitude about marriage. If you were to decide to be a eunuch than be a eunuch, otherwise... it seems you are in a perrenial search for the perfect mate... and that is not exactly the purpose of marriage.


Marriage was created for man, not man for marriage. True, howbeit marraige was instituted by God as the FUNDAMENTAL basis for social structure, community, governance of order and authority. I was not designed to arbitrarily fulfill my duty to someone as their husband, for the sake of itself. I am not sure what ITSELF is... duty, arbitrariness or marraige... I pick marriage. I have to conclude... You are missing the point of marriage... It is to demonstrate the relationship between Christ and the Church, It is for the purpose of YOUR sanctification and spiritual growth as well as the ministry to another (wife), it is to reproduce as in children and community by your public witness... it isn't about joining earning potential, accruing wealth or being DUTIFUL... tho sometimes personal integrity requires making a duty CHOICE.


we live in a Culture that says, there is something missing if we are not keeping up with the Jones and getting married and having children and projecting the image of social success. But we are Christians, we do not need or want such a measure. We do not measure our success or failure by the mate we do or do not have. Our Success is in the Lord, and He is who we take pride in.

Okay... so how is it you plan to live INSIDE the parameters of Gods established WILL for men as a Christian without participating in some of the negative imagrey you mention above? According to scripture... a man of honor and blessing has children, is a good husband, has a faithful wife, guides his family with true leadership, wise counsel, in the fear of the Lord, he is admired by others for these things and invited to sit in the city gates and found acceptable to be a church leader. THe bible says nothing about the Jones' which i characterize as how many credit cards you have, what kind of car do you drive, what labels are in your or ON your clothes, your food, your purse, your furniture, your art, ad naseum...


What do you think?

 

[Liamson]

Given their opposite gender and of similar age and available, thats pretty much how sexual attraction works.



But who is shifted and who is the shiftee?


It is not good for man to be alone.



There is a popular country song to that effect. But unless one is or chooses to be a eunuch, marriage and family is very much part of their calling.



It never was arbitrary, it was for many good things, both personal and social.



You live in a different culture than me. I see my culture as looking down on children and marriage in general. Constantly and in full force in fact.


I guess the big point is that romanticism and feelings of obsession don't make a good marriage. These things may be idealized by our culture, but our culture fails at marriage very severely.

You don't need someone you can't live without, you need someone who even when you cant stand Him and want him to go away you know that deep down, right or wrong in this situation, he cares about you and you are able to work things out. It's not the highs that kill marriages, its the lows.

You won't always feel like you can't live without him, even if you feel that way while you're dating.

Marriage is not a social institution that we should all strive for. This is the problem with this culture. We have Match.com / eHarmony.com / Christian Mingle / JDate and all kinds of propaganda selling the idea that you are SUPPOSE to get married, look for a wife, build a family or otherwise settle with someone.

If you are 30 and not married, people ask what is wrong with you. Not because you are violating some Biblical standard but because, its not normal. People think that its a person's duty to FIND someone to be with, regardless of whether or not they are ready or their heart is in it.

 

[Liamson]

Essentially I'm saying I would rather not Look for a WIFE. For the sake of getting married. I would rather marry my Best friend. Someone that I am familiar with and have known for years, when the time is right.

Take the Song of Solomon. Solomon whisks this Shulamite girl off and into his Harem. She is not ready for marriage. Even though he is a capable spiritual head, provider, leader, protector, blah blah blah etc. Its not true love. And she escapes because she remembers what true love really means. She knows she is not ready to be married but, her love for the Shepherd Boy is enough to get her to leave the luxurious trappings of King Solomon's courts. Even when he lays the world at her feet and she is the envy of every woman in the Kingdom, she knows what True Love is worth waiting for. (do not awaken love before its time) and She knows that Its waiting for her in her shepherd boy.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Essentially I'm saying I would rather not Look for a WIFE. For the sake of getting married. I would rather marry my Best friend. Someone that I am familiar with and have known for years, when the time is right.

Take the Song of Solomon. Solomon whisks this Shulamite girl off and into his Harem. She is not ready for marriage. Even though he is a capable spiritual head, provider, leader, protector, blah blah blah etc. Its not true love. And she escapes because she remembers what true love really means. She knows she is not ready to be married but, her love for the Shepherd Boy is enough to get her to leave the luxurious trappings of King Solomon's courts. Even when he lays the world at her feet and she is the envy of every woman in the Kingdom, she knows what True Love is worth waiting for. (do not awaken love before its time) and She knows that Its waiting for her in her shepherd boy.

Shepherd boy all grown up now... almost 30.. cuz I didn't think you meant to identify with Shulamite? ;)

 

[Precious_Sunflower]

Essentially I'm saying I would rather not Look for a WIFE. For the sake of getting married. I would rather marry my Best friend. Someone that I am familiar with and have known for years, when the time is right.

I find this statement interesting. As one who I know of had her best friend just right there before her, she confessed he was everything she was looking for in her future man, he could always make her laugh, and they met often, but the reason for her not wanting to being with him, was simply that he wasn't "handsome" enough for her.

And well, now she has been going over 10 years waiting for meeting her future husband, and she still remains being single. And she is still waiting for "mr perfect" to coming around the corner.

 

[Liamson]

Its not about Age, its a matter of the heart.

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the sun.

Love does not seek for itself. Love does not want. Love does not ask what is not becoming of it. Love does not Cause strife. Love does not become. Love simply is.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

It is not a selfish end reached by selfish means. That is what Solomon failed to realize. All the kings riches and all the kings fame, could not buy Love.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Marriage is not a social institution that we should all strive for. Right... JUST THE MAJORITY. You can be a eunuch by choice or you can obey God's instrucion for men to MARRY and build families and thus society... PICK ONE.

This is the problem with this culture. We have Match.com / eHarmony.com / Christian Mingle / JDate and all kinds of propaganda selling the idea that you are SUPPOSE to get married, look for a wife, build a family or otherwise settle with someone. WHY are you mad at society for recognizing something GOD set in order at the beginning, or deriding dating sites for having the wherewithal to CAPITALIZE on the pairing of people??? How entrapuenurial, that is how a free capitalistic society conducts business. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO GET MARRIED... or choose to be a eunuch... PICK ONE.



If you are 30 and not married, people ask what is wrong with you. Not because you are violating some Biblical standard but because, its not normal. People think that its a person's duty to FIND someone to be with, regardless of whether or not they are ready or their heart is in it.

Actually... Liamson... It is YOU who is assuming that people are judging for not violating a biblical standards because YOU are the one who is insisting no such standard exists... BUT IT DOES. It isn't normal, as in irregular... not abnormal/defective. I don't know anybody who thinks its any man's duty to find a wife regardless of whether or not they are ready or their heart isn't in it. I do know people who notice the irregularity of a 30-40-50 yea old man who has not married and it raises questions... legitimate questions for the people surrounding said mythical "almost 30 unmarried christian man". They care about mythical man, they care about mythical man's spiritual condition, personal growth, emotional health, etc. These caring people who inquire are intersted in his best interest...not in gossip fodder. They want to pray for mythical man, give him good counsel, help him overcome his conflicts and encourage him on the path of life. If mythical man could accept this view... He might discover a better attitude, feel less stubborn/rebelious, find some healing, develop a softer heart and thus hear the voice of God in the words of others.

I think mythical man has nothing to loose in carefully considering such... and much to gain.

 

[Liamson]

Its not about waiting, sitting on the couch, eating a large pizza and a drinking diet coke.

Its about nurturing the relationships we have with the people we know. And building new, genuine responsible relationships with the potential to grow into long lasting trusting relationships. and out of those, people fall in love.

we live in an information age, where people will go for weeks without meeting other people outside of church and family. They get their social fix through social networking.

Yet, we have so many people who are alone. No one really knows when people are hurting, because we get status updates. We assume that people are what they are projecting socially. Everyone wants to appear happy, and loved. But real love takes time and effort.

 

[Precious_Sunflower]

I didn't meant saying that it had anything with age to do. I was more pointing to that if God has already brought the man of her life in front of her, and he is everything she would wish for in her mate but only not having "the looks" that she wants, then it would be foolish as well as a waste waiting for years untill she realizes that he was always there before her eyes, but because she was too blinded by her desire of wanting her chosen husband to being also "handsome", whilst this man already was the man God had chosen for her, she might go wasting a lot of time and become more frustrated the longer the time goes before realizing it after many year's time.

There are even followers of Christ that do not always agree about nor likes by first sight their chosen spouse, whilst God has clearly told them that this is the one they are to marry. But most of these beleivers manages to getting off from that thought or they happen to fall for them later on.