The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’
- Thread starter Tommy4Christ
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This is a conversation Jesus was having with the Jews whose sticking point was that Jesus said “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They could not reconcile that Jesus was God on earth bearing in mind his humble origins.
Jesus told them, “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
When Jesus said this he was quoting from Isaiah 54:13 that says “It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Both Jesus and Paul taught the Jews from their own writing and Jesus was telling the Jews that God had already taken the initiative through the prophets and had called them and drawn them many times and now the initiative is with them and also with us to respond to the call.
So we have learnt two things, the first is that we need to do the will of God which means we have to be obedient to Him and secondly we need to respond to the calling of God which we read about many times in the Old Testament.
Jesus told them, “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
When Jesus said this he was quoting from Isaiah 54:13 that says “It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Both Jesus and Paul taught the Jews from their own writing and Jesus was telling the Jews that God had already taken the initiative through the prophets and had called them and drawn them many times and now the initiative is with them and also with us to respond to the call.
So we have learnt two things, the first is that we need to do the will of God which means we have to be obedient to Him and secondly we need to respond to the calling of God which we read about many times in the Old Testament.
T
If I choose not to risk, if I go the "safe" route and determine not to promote either salvation by grace or a lifestyle of grace, what are the alternatives?
I can leave no room for any gray areas. Everything is either black or white, right or wrong. And as a result, the leader maintains strict control over the followers. Fellowship is based on whether there is full agreement. Herein lies the tragedy. This self-righteous, rigid standard becomes more important than relationships with individuals. We first check out where people stand on the issues, and then we determine whether we will spend much time with them. The bottom line is this: We want to be right (as we see it, of course) more than we want to love our neighbors as ourselves. At that point our personal preferences eclipse any evidence of love. I am of the firm conviction that where grace exists, so must various areas of gray.
I can leave no room for any gray areas. Everything is either black or white, right or wrong. And as a result, the leader maintains strict control over the followers. Fellowship is based on whether there is full agreement. Herein lies the tragedy. This self-righteous, rigid standard becomes more important than relationships with individuals. We first check out where people stand on the issues, and then we determine whether we will spend much time with them. The bottom line is this: We want to be right (as we see it, of course) more than we want to love our neighbors as ourselves. At that point our personal preferences eclipse any evidence of love. I am of the firm conviction that where grace exists, so must various areas of gray.
I can cultivate a judgmental attitude toward those who may not agree or cooperate with my plan. Grace killers are notorious for a judgmental attitude. It is perhaps the single most un-Christlike characteristic in evangelical circles today.
A quick glance back through the time tunnel will prove beneficial. Jesus found Himself standing before the brain trust of legalism, the Pharisees. Listening to Him were also many who believed in Him. He had been presenting His message to the crowd; it was a message of hope, of forgiveness, of freedom.
"As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, 'If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free' " (John 8:30-32).
He spoke of the liberating power of the truth. Even though the official grace killers rejected His message, He assured them it could make them free. All who embrace grace become "free indeed."
Free from what? Free from oneself. Free from guilt and shame. Free from the damnable impulses I couldn't stop when I was in bondage to sin. Free from the tyranny of others' opinions, expectations, demands. And free to what? Free to obey. Free to love. Free to forgive others as well as myself. Free to allow others to be who they are---different from me! Free to live beyond the limitations of human effort. Free to serve and glorify Christ. In no uncertain terms, Jesus Christ assured His own that His truth was able to liberate them from every needless restriction: "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36). I love that. The possibilities are unlimited.
This was quoted from Charles Swindoll.....
I gotta say, if I can just up and stop sinning what need of I to have a Savior?If I can just learn not to sin then why not just do that? Then I would be "good" enough to get into the pearly gates and all would be fine.
I'm of the opinion that Tommy is right that people often use "grace" as a means to continue in sin with no effort to change their ways. But how much stronger a relationship with those who know Gods Grace in their lives and still CHOOSE Him when temptation arises? Lean on Him, dwell on Him knowing His grace abounds yet my sin requires a return to Him and a reliance on His Grace to survive......it weighs on me as I write this post that this is truly our greatest need of a Savior.....Be a Slave to Christ and set yourself free from the bondage of sin! God Bless...
The Machine
Hakoona Matotta, what a wonderful phrase........Timone and Pumba
This was quoted from Charles Swindoll.....
I gotta say, if I can just up and stop sinning what need of I to have a Savior?If I can just learn not to sin then why not just do that? Then I would be "good" enough to get into the pearly gates and all would be fine.
I'm of the opinion that Tommy is right that people often use "grace" as a means to continue in sin with no effort to change their ways. But how much stronger a relationship with those who know Gods Grace in their lives and still CHOOSE Him when temptation arises? Lean on Him, dwell on Him knowing His grace abounds yet my sin requires a return to Him and a reliance on His Grace to survive......it weighs on me as I write this post that this is truly our greatest need of a Savior.....Be a Slave to Christ and set yourself free from the bondage of sin! God Bless...
The Machine
Hakoona Matotta, what a wonderful phrase........Timone and Pumba
U
Amen. As do I. Those who walk in ignorance pertaining to the knowledge of God, or darkness, which describes what it truly is and where we all once walked before coming to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ cannot and should not consider the manner of the freewill question without first considering the following. How and by what power did any of us come to that place of conviction and truth ... where we knew undoubtedly in our hearts that if we "chose" to trust Christ at His word and receive Him, we would be saved ? Does a starving man near death "choose" to eat a meal that is placed before him ? How does the factor of "choice' enter into that equation ... except to say that he either eat or die ? Which in and of itself, is the only substance of "choice" left that we are faced with once God's Spirit has convicted our hearts of our need for Him. God leads ... God draws us ... God convicts ... and only God can save. Only a fool says in his heart that there is no God. And it is in this sense only that we can say that we have exercised our freewill. Our freewill to be a fool. But praise our heavenly Father that He has drawn us unto Himself.
E
This all sounds good bro. but there are issues.
1. Abraham considered heaven;ly jerusalem more important than physical. No one would argue this.
2. God still promised physical canaan to his children and him, although he said they would not possess it for 400 years because the sin of the people was not yet complete.
3. Although God promised abraham the heavenly, he also assured his people owuld be given the physical. Thus we can not try to combine the two as ammillenialist try to do.
4. Abraham was never given his land while he was alive, he had to purchase a plot, on the land given to him, to bury his wife. because he did not own the land given him.
/ The scene in rev 21 occurs after the 1000 years. not before. which means it occures after the tribulation, or the day of Gods wrath. After the return of Christ, to wipe out all evil. After the time in which "ALL Isreal is saved" which occures before the time of the 1000 years.. so alot does not add up in this ammilinial point of view.
The physical land was an eternal promise. How can an eternal promise be fulfilled as long as eternity is not yet complete? An eternal promise means that as long as the physical land still exists. the promise is still in effect. Again, as I have said over and over, If God can not keep his eternal promise to the children of Abraqham through Issac and Jacob, then what would keep him from not keeping his eternal promise of eternal life to us?
it is like saying God gave us his gift. this he already fulfilled his promise. But (like Israel) if we do not live up to his standard (the law) We forfeit the gift. As isreal supposedly did when they turned from God. And this would be a bad thing, because it means all the people we claim are saved because they were born again risk losing their salvation. because God fulfilled his promise, but we did not live up to our side of the covenant.
The Abraham covenant of land was an unconditional covenant, God said "I WILL" he did not say "If your people do this, I will" just like eternal life is an unconditional covenant. God said I WILL.
eternal means eternal. it never ends. do you believe this, or do you not?
18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
compair this with john 3; 16:
for God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall NEVER parish, but has EVERLASTING life.
if the word everlasting in genesis is not really eternal, but conditional, then the word everlasting in john is also not really eternal, but conditional.
1. Abraham considered heaven;ly jerusalem more important than physical. No one would argue this.
2. God still promised physical canaan to his children and him, although he said they would not possess it for 400 years because the sin of the people was not yet complete.
3. Although God promised abraham the heavenly, he also assured his people owuld be given the physical. Thus we can not try to combine the two as ammillenialist try to do.
4. Abraham was never given his land while he was alive, he had to purchase a plot, on the land given to him, to bury his wife. because he did not own the land given him.
/ The scene in rev 21 occurs after the 1000 years. not before. which means it occures after the tribulation, or the day of Gods wrath. After the return of Christ, to wipe out all evil. After the time in which "ALL Isreal is saved" which occures before the time of the 1000 years.. so alot does not add up in this ammilinial point of view.
The physical land was an eternal promise. How can an eternal promise be fulfilled as long as eternity is not yet complete? An eternal promise means that as long as the physical land still exists. the promise is still in effect. Again, as I have said over and over, If God can not keep his eternal promise to the children of Abraqham through Issac and Jacob, then what would keep him from not keeping his eternal promise of eternal life to us?
it is like saying God gave us his gift. this he already fulfilled his promise. But (like Israel) if we do not live up to his standard (the law) We forfeit the gift. As isreal supposedly did when they turned from God. And this would be a bad thing, because it means all the people we claim are saved because they were born again risk losing their salvation. because God fulfilled his promise, but we did not live up to our side of the covenant.
The Abraham covenant of land was an unconditional covenant, God said "I WILL" he did not say "If your people do this, I will" just like eternal life is an unconditional covenant. God said I WILL.
eternal means eternal. it never ends. do you believe this, or do you not?
18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
compair this with john 3; 16:
for God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall NEVER parish, but has EVERLASTING life.
if the word everlasting in genesis is not really eternal, but conditional, then the word everlasting in john is also not really eternal, but conditional.
E
but yet Jesus explained it to him, then told him what he must do. "Whoever believes in him shall never perish' Thus he did tell nicodemus he had a choice. Believe, or not believe.
Nicodemous should have known. but he was brought up in religion. and was confused. that is why he came to Jesus to ask. Nicodemus was seeking. even though he was still a "depraved" sinner/.
Nicodemous should have known. but he was brought up in religion. and was confused. that is why he came to Jesus to ask. Nicodemus was seeking. even though he was still a "depraved" sinner/.
E
Yet they did. But Scripture speaks of things more severe than this which will occure on Earth.
The sad part. is Jesus told them how long their house would be left desolate in this very passage.
Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!'"
Their house will be left desolate until the repent. and claim Jesus is Lord. It does not say it will be left desolate forever. now does it?
The sad part. is Jesus told them how long their house would be left desolate in this very passage.
Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!'"
Their house will be left desolate until the repent. and claim Jesus is Lord. It does not say it will be left desolate forever. now does it?
E
I would disagree
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
1. He told him he (and us) myst believe
2. He told him he who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is still condemned.
3. he said men who love sin does not come to the light, because it exposes them (see also romans 1) But those who love truth more than sin do come to the light., and the light exposes ythat they are from God (because at this time the light saves the)
when Nicodemus left. he had two choices. Believe in jesus, or continue to believe in his religion, and reject Jesus. If he rejected him, he would have no excuse, as none of us would.