The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[eternally-gratefull]

Truly you have read many of my posts!!!! Yet, have you heard me ever say that we are saved by works (of the Law)?

a work is a work is a work. It does not matter if it is a work of the law or not. If we are working to earn a reward (salvation) then we are working a work where we can take credit for saving ourselves. Adding"the law" is just a cheep trick by satan to distract us from truth, and get us to still work for our salvation.. and keep us from the grace of God.

 

[rauleetoe]

You say it "seems" to be a work. If you think these things are the work of man then I will question if you have experienced the things of which you speak. If you think you have to do any work in order to be saved then you are grossly deceived. These things mentioned above are but the work of God. They are the fruit of regeneration. They are not the work of man. Fruit of regeneration - not works of merit. Your problem is that you do not differ much enough between the regenerate and the unregenerate and their respective characteristics. The reason for that must be that you do not yet understand the gospel nor the nature of man and the absolute perfect holiness of God almighty.

Regeneration? what Regeneration? If you mean and imply that five point high calvinism or God saying..eenie meanie miney moe(this one i save..yet this one..umm..no!) Is the gospel than you have better pray that you are 'elect' because according to your view..one cannot truly know if he or she is elect..so, why even emphasize holiness? If election saved you..just go on sinning! But don't be putting an emphasis on that which is not important according to the doctrine of double predestination!
This is a merely adding to Calvinism..

 

[rauleetoe]

imma jump in and say that anyone who teaches that has not experienced regeneration.
if you've been born from above, you know it.

Anyone who teaches what has not experienced regeneration? Anyone who does not hold to OSAS or The P in tulip? I am just wanting to be sure that you are not doing what others have done here that says that all arminians are going to hell and all calvinists are going to heaven..
If you are, you are in grave error..and can only pray you see the error of your ways, and that we classical arminians are too, your brothers and sisters in the faith(whether you like it or not)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You waste your time with EG, he is dilusional and has a bad habit of adding to that others say..he speaks in half truths regarding anybody who opposes OSAS..

wow dude. Should I report you? You state you have ignored me, but every time you seem to speak, you seem to put my name in it?You have serious issues my friend. What you claim I do, you do yourself every time you speak. thus you are a hypocrite.

Clutz knows me, and he knows I am his friend, and not out to condemn him. Unlike you who condemns everyone who does not agree with you. he is open to honest discussion.l You should learn from him

i suggest you do what i did..put him on ignore..he is a lost cause definitely..and you will only find yourself tempted to lash out in responses to him..which is borderline carnal..so, merely avoid him..sadly he will not hear you out, and call you a legalist..or worst..say you are condemned and cry foul when you expose his problems with his theology..just walk away while there is a chance..

Yep you just proved how much you ignore me. Clutz has more love of God in his pinky than you have in your whole body!

 

[cfultz3]

a work is a work is a work. It does not matter if it is a work of the law or not. If we are working to earn a reward (salvation) then we are working a work where we can take credit for saving ourselves. Adding"the law" is just a cheep trick by satan to distract us from truth, and get us to still work for our salvation.. and keep us from the grace of God.

to believe = a verb. A deed. Are we not told that the work of God is to believe in the One He sent? So then, Abraham's faith was a work of faith or Law? Of course. A work of faith. If we are the performer of a verb, then it is a deed=work.

Shall we do away with one's choice to believe, seeing that it is a work?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Regeneration? what Regeneration? If you mean and imply that five point high calvinism or God saying..eenie meanie miney moe(this one i save..yet this one..umm..no!) Is the gospel than you have better pray that you are 'elect' because according to your view..one cannot truly know if he or she is elect..so, why even emphasize holiness? If election saved you..just go on sinning! But don't be putting an emphasis on that which is not important according to the doctrine of double predestination!
This is a merely adding to Calvinism..

Yep. no hatred here. Was this guy just posting about someone he has ignored because of their hatred in their posts. and how they attack him because we do not agree with him.

does any one else see his hypocracy??

Keep on talking raulytoe. your are condemning yourself. Because you do the very thing you claim others do to you. and get all huffy and puffy over it.

and yeah, I said it again;. Just to expose your hypocracy so all can see it.

 

[rauleetoe]

to believe = a verb. A deed. Are we not told that the work of God is to believe in the One He sent? So then, Abraham's faith was a work of faith or Law? Of course. A work of faith. If we are the performer of a verb, then it is a deed=work.

Shall we do away with one's choice to believe, seeing that it is a work?

Sadly some will do that..and then when it is convenient imply that they have a choice..but to remain liked by their calvinist friends and accepted..they must take the ultra monergist appeal and throw up a huge grace card..but never accept human responsibility..Yet in the same breath they will say they are still christian and walk with God albeit not walking..merely only believing..sounds like a dead faith to me.
Alas, this is the commonplace belief here..don't expect to change things Cfultz..the grace card has been thrown..the belief that God has not given us the ability to live for him is prevalent..and this cheap grace is what many here are selling..and i am not buying..

 

[cfultz3]

if we believe we can lose salvation. we are not working works of faith. we are working works of redemption. so we will not lose what we must earn.. see the difference here??

To continue to believe....is it possible to stop believing at a point and still obtain salvation? We are to believe (present indicative) so that we may be saved. Is this work of faith not a work of redemption, seeing that without it, there is no redemption?

If one is to have believed (aorist active subjunctive (the actor to have performed an act)), then one can also perform the reverse action of not believing. If the first act is possible for me to have done, and the second one is not, then is it to be said that God has taken over my faith, and in essence, my will?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

to believe = a verb. A deed. Are we not told that the work of God is to believe in the One He sent? So then, Abraham's faith was a work of faith or Law? Of course. A work of faith. If we are the performer of a verb, then it is a deed=work.

Shall we do away with one's choice to believe, seeing that it is a work?

the word translated believe in that verse is pistis. it means to have faith, to entrust, to be fully assured.

Abraham was fully assured (trusted god) that what he said was true; he was saved before he did any outward work of obedience. His work only proved to us that his faith was real. if abraham did not trust God, he would have done nothing, he would not have even left the security and riches of his fathers house.


Jesus calls it a work of God. because God did all the work we are placing our faith, full assurance in. It is his work we are trusting, not our own. if we are trusting in ANY work we do. we are trusting self, and not God. does this make sense?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To continue to believe....is it possible to stop believing at a point and still obtain salvation? We are to believe (present indicative) so that we may be saved. Is this work of faith not a work of redemption, seeing that without it, there is no redemption?

According to john no. If we would stop believing, we would be against Christ. and john makes it clear. if we do this, we were never saved to begin with, we had mere believe, and not faith.

there is a difference between mere belief and faith. do you believe this?

If one is to have believed (aorist active subjunctive (the actor to have performed an act)), then one can also perform the reverse action of not believing. If the first act is possible for me to have done, and the second one is not, then is it to be said that God has taken over my faith, and in essence, my will?

No, it would not be that God took over your will. Anyone who fully understand his situation against God. Who fully trusts in the work and promises of God, and has felt the spirit of God in them would never stop having faith. They would never want to go back to what they had (spiritual death and the emptiness which came tih ti, before they were saved) it is not that God would force them to keep believing, they would never want to stop believing.

This does not mean they may not fall in sin, and even walk away for a bit (like a prodigal son) but even when I was a prodigal son myself. I never stopped believing. I knew I was saved, and I knew what I was doing was wrongl it took 5 years. but the guilt and chastening of God finally brought me to freely chose to return. Like it did the prodigal son. Because he knew his dad and what he was missing, that is why no one would ever stop believing, it is impossible.

 

[zone]

the word translated believe in that verse is pistis. it means to have faith, to entrust, to be fully assured.

Jesus calls it a work of God. because God did all the work we are placing our faith, full assurance in. It is his work we are trusting, not our own. if we are trusting in ANY work we do. we are trusting self, and not God. does this make sense?

even the ability to trust comes from Him.
Amen.


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

................

Jesus calls it a work of God. because God did all the work

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Jesus calls it a work of God. because God did all the work

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

................


herein is the scandal.
GOD DID IT ALL.

man hates that idea.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

even the ability to trust comes from Him.
Amen.


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

................

Jesus calls it a work of God. because God did all the work

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Jesus calls it a work of God. because God did all the work

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

................


herein is the scandal.
GOD DID IT ALL.

man hates that idea.

lol. So if I have pistis in my boss at work and do what he says, it was from God.

Come on zone. I know you are smarter than that.

I have faith in God because he did all the work, and made the promise. Not because God made me have faith by some supernatural act. and did not hold it from me like he does those he did not chose.

he offered it to them to. His work would have saved them to. They chose not to trust him. They will be condemned because they did not trust him. Not because they sinned.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, why? because they have sinned and fallen short?? No. Because they HAVE NOT BELIEVED in the name of the son of God.

 

[zone]

lol. So if I have pistis in my boss at work and do what he says, it was from God.

Come on zone. I know you are smarter than that.

I have faith in God because he did all the work, and made the promise. Not because God made me have faith by some supernatural act. and did not hold it from me like he does those he did not chose.

he offered it to them to. His work would have saved them to. They chose not to trust him. They will be condemned because they did not trust him. Not because they sinned.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, why? because they have sinned and fallen short?? No. Because they HAVE NOT BELIEVED in the name of the son of God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

which part of this is your own doing EG?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

πίστις, ἡ, gen. εως: dat. πίστει, Ion. πίστῑ: Ion. nom. and acc. pl. πίστῑς; dat. πίστισι: (πείθομα&#953: pistis—trust in others, faith, Lat. fides, fiducia, Hes., Theogn., Att.; c. gen. pers. faith or belief in one, Eur.:—generally, persuasion of a thing, confidence, assurance, Pind., Att.
2. good faith, trustworthiness, faithfulness, honesty, Lat. fides, Theogn., Hdt., Att.
3. in a commercial sense, credit, trust, πίστις τοσούτων χρημάτων ἐστί μοι παρά τινι I have credit for so much money with him, Dem.; εἰς πίστιν διδόναι τί τινι Id.
4. in Theol. faith, belief, as opp. to sight and knowledge, N.T.
II. that which gives confidence: hence,
1. an assurance, pledge of good faith, warrant, guarantee, Soph., Eur.; πίστιν καὶ ὅρκια ποιεῖσθαι to make a treaty by exchange of assurances and oaths, Hdt.; οὔτε π. οὔθʼ ὅρκος μένει Ar.; πίστιν διδόναι to give assurances, Hdt.; διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν to interchange them, Xen.:—of an oath, θεῶν πίστεις ὀμνύναι Thuc.; πίστιν ἐπιτιθέναι or προστιθέναι τινί Dem.:—φόβων π. an assurance against fears, Eur.
2. a means of persuasion, an argument, proof, such as used by orators, Plat., etc.


Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (641). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God gave us the assurance based on his promise and his work. But it does not guarantee we will be assured of What God offers us.

Not to mention. No where does it say this only comes if God allows it, or it can only come from God. we can have PISTIS in things not related to God.

 

[zone]

lol. So if I have pistis in my boss at work and do what he says, it was from God.

not talking about your boss at the shop....

but if we can use him as an example....

you go to work just like any other day.
you trust your boss to pay you for your work. just like every month.

one day he sends you a note saying he has deposited a million dollars in your account, simply because He felt generous.

not because you performed well, or because you were nice to him on Thursday.

you check your balance and sure enough it is there.

and He says that million dollars is only a deposit, sign of his ultimate gift....the million dollars is a down-payment on what he has informed you in writing, stamped by his lawyers and a judge, is his vast estate in Bahamas.

no strings attached.

since he gave you the million dollars you didn't earn or deserve, and since you have the sealed stamped legal letter saying the estate in Bahamas is yours, is there any reason you wouldn't have faith that he is telling you the truth? that the estate belongs to you?

he bought it, he paid far more than a million dollars for it, but he is giving it to you.

you have his word.

do you trust him?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

which part of this is your own doing EG?

Paul did not say our faith was not our own doing, He said we are saved by faith, as apposed to works. I can not take credit for faith. I did not do anythign to earn it. GOD DID ALL THE WORK. HE OFFERED The gift. I just chose to take it. and not reject it

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, (this is how we are saved)


and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (we did not save ourselves by doing works, it was a gift of God.)

 

[zone]

πίστις, ἡ, gen. εως: dat. πίστει, Ion. πίστῑ: Ion. nom. and acc. pl. πίστῑς; dat. πίστισι: (πείθομα&#953: pistis—trust in others, faith, Lat. fides, fiducia, Hes., Theogn., Att.; c. gen. pers. faith or belief in one, Eur.:—generally, persuasion of a thing, confidence, assurance, Pind., Att.
2. good faith, trustworthiness, faithfulness, honesty, Lat. fides, Theogn., Hdt., Att.
3. in a commercial sense, credit, trust, πίστις τοσούτων χρημάτων ἐστί μοι παρά τινι I have credit for so much money with him, Dem.; εἰς πίστιν διδόναι τί τινι Id.
4. in Theol. faith, belief, as opp. to sight and knowledge, N.T.
II. that which gives confidence: hence,
1. an assurance, pledge of good faith, warrant, guarantee, Soph., Eur.; πίστιν καὶ ὅρκια ποιεῖσθαι to make a treaty by exchange of assurances and oaths, Hdt.; οὔτε π. οὔθʼ ὅρκος μένει Ar.; πίστιν διδόναι to give assurances, Hdt.; διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν to interchange them, Xen.:—of an oath, θεῶν πίστεις ὀμνύναι Thuc.; πίστιν ἐπιτιθέναι or προστιθέναι τινί Dem.:—φόβων π. an assurance against fears, Eur.
2. a means of persuasion, an argument, proof, such as used by orators, Plat., etc.


Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon (641). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God gave us the assurance based on his promise and his work. But it does not guarantee we will be assured of What God offers us.

Not to mention. No where does it say this only comes if God allows it, or it can only come from God. we can have PISTIS in things not related to God.

if we have been born from above, we are the sons of God, and heir according to the PROMISE.
the Person and Work of Jesus Christ in redeeming me for God is the object of my pistis. Jesus is.
that's what my trust is in. Jesus.

that is the means (faith) through which God has chosen to persuade me that Jesus is The Christ, with all that entails.
that pistis is from God, it is about Christ. not about whether Volvo is a reliable car.

i can not be born from above without making the same profession Peter made.

Thou Art the Christ, The Son of the Living God.

i can not make that profession without it having been inbirthed into my circumcised heart.

not possible.

the natural man does not seek God and he can not understand. he is NOT able.

 

[cfultz3]

EG = blue
Me = purple

According to john no. If we would stop believing, we would be against Christ. --Thank you.


and john makes it clear. if we do this, we were never saved to begin with, we had mere believe (to place confidence in one), and not faith (to place confidence in one). --If one places their confidence in Christ, then they have faith. Perhaps, we are talking about those who call themselves Christians but are not by the deeds they do?

there is a difference between mere belief and faith. do you believe this? --I believe in those who merely talk the talk and those who walk the walk. So, yes.



No, it would not be that God took over your will. Anyone who fully understand his situation against God. Who fully trusts in the work and promises of God, and has felt the spirit of God in them would never stop having faith. They would never want to go back to what they had (spiritual death and the emptiness which came tih ti, before they were saved) it is not that God would force them to keep believing, they would never want to stop believing. -- Why not? Adam and Eve and some angels were in fellowship with God, they left? We are given many other examples of those who left God to follow another god (whatever sort of god it is). We are told that many will abandon the faith in the latter days.


This does not mean they may not fall in sin, and even walk away for a bit (like a prodigal son) but even when I was a prodigal son myself. I never stopped believing. I knew I was saved, and I knew what I was doing was wrongl it took 5 years. but the guilt and chastening of God finally brought me to freely chose to return. Like it did the prodigal son. Because he knew his dad and what he was missing, that is why no one would ever stop believing, it is impossible. -- First of all, I am glad to hear of your return Home. What of those who shall fall away during the latter days? Is it not possible to have been erased from the Book of Life?

What could possibly cause one to walk away from God? A lack of interest? A god offering more 'delightful indulances'? Let us look at it in the reverse: what causes one to walk away from a false god? Is it not the things spoken of God which indices them to walk away from that false god? Say their god was thievery and they saw where God said, your treasures in Heaven are everlasting? That could have caused them to walk away from that false god.

So likewise, if a child of God falls into temptation and does not resist, but indulges in that which he is tempted by, and refuses the Spirit to the point of having his conscience seared, and he does not remember his first love, will he not be removed, even as that church was warned if they did not repent and return to their first love (doing the things of God)?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

not talking about your boss at the shop....

but if we can use him as an example....

you go to work just like any other day.
you trust your boss to pay you for your work. just like every month.

one day he sends you a note saying he has deposited a million dollars in your account, simply because He felt generous.

not because you performed well, or because you were nice to him on Thursday.

you check your balance and sure enough it is there.

and He says that million dollars is only a deposit, sign of his ultimate gift....the million dollars is a down-payment on what he has informed you in writing, stamped by his lawyers and a judge, is his vast estate in Bahamas.

no strings attached.

since he gave you the million dollars you didn't earn or deserve, and since you have the sealed stamped legal letter saying the estate in Bahamas is yours, is there any reason you wouldn't have faith that he is telling you the truth? that the estate belongs to you?

he bought it, he paid far more than a million dollars for it, but he is giving it to you.

you have his word.

do you trust him?

If I believe my boss is trustworthy, yes. If I believe the bank statement I am looking at is trustworhty, yes, If I believe that he gave me this much, he must have given me the rest, yes.

If not. No. I will think it is a sham. I realy did not recive the money, he somehow got my bank account to show something which is not there. Yeh, even though he might have gave me this, I do nto believe he gave me the rest. there are MANY reasons I may still not trust my boss.

Like many people chose to believe the gospel of grace through faith alone is a sham, You see it here every day, people believe it is a lie from you and I, a licentious gospel they refuse to trust. . And they do not trust God, even though they have heard read the same words of the gospel you and I have heard and read.

Do I still not have to chose to trust my boss? Your right, it is not my work. thats why I cant get credit.

If I chose to trust him and recieved everything he gave me by free will trust. Could I take any credit for recieving it? NO!! Why? As you saidk I did not do anything to earn it.

You just answered your own question zone. I still must FREELY chose to believe and have faith what my boss said is true. But I can not take credit for believing now can I?

 

[zone]

If I believe my boss is trustworthy, yes. If I believe the bank statement I am looking at is trustworhty, yes, If I believe that he gave me this much, he must have given me the rest, yes.

If not. No. I will think it is a sham. I realy did not recive the money, he somehow got my bank account to show something which is not there. Yeh, even though he might have gave me this, I do nto believe he gave me the rest. there are MANY reasons I may still not trust my boss.

Like many people chose to believe the gospel of grace through faith alone is You see it here every day, people believe it is a sham. And trhey do not trust God, even though they have heard read the same words of the gospel you and I have heard and read.

Do I still not have to chose to trust my boss? Your right, it is not my work. thats why I cant get credit.

If I chose to trust him and recieved everything he gave me by free will trust. Could I take any credit for recieving it? NO!! Why? As you saidk I did not do anything to earn it.

You just answered your own question zone. I still must FREELY chose to believe and have faith what my boss said is true. But I can not take credit for believing now can I?

but you are able to trust your boss because he sent a letter.
which clearly states what He has given you.
and that letter is notarized.

your boss is the King of the World.
who will resist His will?