Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

[eternally-gratefull]

dispensationalism strikes again.

do what? where do you get this?

 

[zone]

He most certainly did not pay the penalty due the sinner.

then you are in a lot of trouble.
you're the heretic who said God will not lower Himself to reconcile man to Himself.

you're the guy who doesn't know anything about the Baby Born of a virgin.
no clue why He came or what He did.


Propitiation
"Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering. In relation to soteriology, propitiation means placating or satisfying the wrath of God by the atoning sacrifice of Christ."

Charles C. Ryrie (1999-01-11). Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (Kindle Locations 5503-5504). Moody Publishers. Kindle Edition.

"The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them."^[1]^ Propitiation is that "by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners."^[2]^

Background
Luke 18:13. In the parable of the "Pharisee and the Tax Collector", we also have an extraordinary use of the same word group. Note the Tax Collector cries out, "God, be merciful to me a sinner". Although our English translations do not bear it out in obvious fashion, this is a cognate verb, "be merciful" (hilaskomai). Note Colin Browns discussion: Vol. 3, 160

In Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5 the Greek word hilasterion (KJV, "mercy-seat") is used. It is the word employed by the Septuagint (LXX). translators in Ex. 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:21; 30:6). Hilasterion came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitiation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.^[3]^

In 1 John 2:2; 4:10, Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used, hilasmos. Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covering it by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Compare Heb. 2:17, where the expression "make reconciliation" of the KJV is more correctly in the ASV "make propitiation").^[4]^

Propitiation versus Expiation
Propitiation literally means to make favorable and specifically includes the idea of dealing with God’s wrath against sinners. Expiation literally means to make pious and implies either the removal or cleansing of sin.

The idea of propitiation includes that of expiation as its means; but the word "expiation" has no reference to quenching God’s righteous anger. The difference is that the object of expiation is sin, not God. One propitiates a person, and one expiates a problem. Christ's death was therefore both an expiation and a propitiation. By expiating (removing the problem of) sin God was made propitious (favorable) to us.

The case for translating the Greek word hilasterion as "expiation" was put forward by C. H. Dodd in 1935 and gained wide support.^[5]^ As a result hilasterion has been translated as ‘expiation’ in the RSV and some other modern versions. But a generation of debate has shown, especially in the work of Leon Morris, that the linguistic evidence appears to favor “propitiation” as the more appropriate rendering.^[6]^

 

[Skinski7]

so if this is the cae. then how can sin commited after one is already "born of God" be forgiven? would not the first sin we commit after make us unacceptable to god and thus we be eternally condemned. because there would be no hope of forgiveness or atonment for that sin?

Scripture says without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. Thus, if Christs blood only washes previous sin, and we, as you say, are not under law after, and no blood is spilt for atonement, we have no hope of forgiveness..

Which is why if you read early church writings they took willful sin after repentance very seriously. Many denied a second repentance was even possible. They understood that Christ cannot be crucified again and again.

That is a very good question you have asked and I am glad you asked it.

I still try to grasp how a second repentance works in conjunction with recrucifying Christ because clearly in Revelation 2 and 3 people in the churches have left their first love and are called to do their first works. I believe that a second repentance is possible but finding it is not guaranteed because willfully sinning from a place of full knowledge is much more serious than sinning when in darkness.

The writer of Hebrews understood this and that is why he warned...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It is a very serious matter to have been sanctified by the blood and then to willfully sin against it. Many people pass over these warnings and push them from their minds because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 6 has a very similar warning in the context of "falling away."

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That verse pretty clearly states that a second repentance is impossible for those who fall away from the faith. Yet all things are possible with God right?

A brother who has been in the faith a long time told me that he has never seen someone who fell away come back into the faith. I am not saying it is not possible, just that this brother has never seen it.

I remember reading in Eusebius church history the following account of a second repentance involving John and a young man who fell away...

8. But the presbyter[SUP]753[/SUP] taking home the youth committed to him, 151reared, kept, cherished, and finally baptized[SUP]754[/SUP] him. After this he relaxed his stricter care and watchfulness, with the idea that in putting upon him the seal of the Lord[SUP]755[/SUP] he had given him a perfect protection.
9. But some youths of his own age, idle and dissolute, and accustomed to evil practices, corrupted him when he was thus prematurely freed from restraint. At first they enticed him by costly entertainments; then, when they went forth at night for robbery, they took him with them, and finally they demanded that he should unite with them in some greater crime.
10. He gradually became accustomed to such practices, and on account of the positiveness of his character,[SUP]756[/SUP] leaving the right path, and taking the bit in his teeth like a hard-mouthed and powerful horse, he rushed the more violently down into the depths.
11. And finally despairing of salvation in God, he no longer meditated what was insignificant, but having committed some great crime, since he was now lost once for all, he expected to suffer a like fate with the rest. Taking them, therefore, and forming a band of robbers, he became a bold bandit-chief, the most violent, most bloody, most cruel of them all.
12. Time passed, and some necessity having arisen, they sent for John. But he, when he had set in order the other matters on account of which he had come, said, ‘Come, O bishop, restore us the deposit which both I and Christ committed to thee, the church, over which thou presidest, being witness.’
13. But the bishop was at first confounded, thinking that he was falsely charged in regard to money which he had not received, and he could neither believe the accusation respecting what he had not, nor could he disbelieve John. But when he said, ‘I demand the young man and the soul of the brother,’ the old man, groaning deeply and at the same time bursting into tears, said, ‘He is dead.’ ‘How and what kind of death?’ ‘He is dead to God,’ he said; ‘for he turned wicked and abandoned, and at last a robber. And now, instead of the church, he haunts the mountain with a band like himself.’
14. But the Apostle rent his clothes, and beating his head with great lamentation, he said, ‘A fine guard I left for a brother’s soul! But let a horse be brought me, and let some one show me the way.’ He rode away from the church just as he was, and coming to the place, he was taken prisoner by the robbers’ outpost.
15. He, however, neither fled nor made entreaty, 152but cried out, ‘For this did I come; lead me to your captain.’
16. The latter, meanwhile, was waiting, armed as he was. But when he recognized John approaching, he turned in shame to flee.
17. But John, forgetting his age, pursued him with all his might, crying out, ‘Why, my son, dost thou flee from me, thine own father, unarmed, aged? Pity me, my son; fear not; thou hast still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for thee. If need be, I will willingly endure thy death as the Lord suffered death for us. For thee will I give up my life. Stand, believe; Christ hath sent me.’

18. And he, when he heard, first stopped and looked down; then he threw away his arms, and then trembled and wept bitterly. And when the old man approached, he embraced him, making confession with lamentations as he was able, baptizing himself a second time with tears, and concealing only his right hand.
19. But John, pledging himself, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness with the Saviour, besought him, fell upon his knees, kissed his right hand itself as if now purified by repentance, and led him back to the church. And making intercession for him with copious prayers, and struggling together with him in continual fastings, and subduing his mind by various utterances, he did not depart, as they say, until he had restored him to the church, furnishing a great example of true repentance and a great proof of regeneration, a trophy of a visible resurrection.”

NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

There is also this verse...

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Eze 18:26 paints the picture of a righteous man who turns back to wickedness but it says "and dieth in them" which appears to imply that he can still turn back.

Suffice to say that willful sin after an authentic salvation experience is very dangerous indeed. It is not the end of hope but for those who do it they are worse off than they were previously before their first repentance.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

That is what the Scriptures teach and I believe them. It also makes a lot of sense to me also.

Under the errors of modern theology the warnings of Heb 10:26-29, 2Pet 2:20-22, and Heb 6:4-6 lose all meaning. In fact the preachers are forced to twist those scriptures into something else entirely apart from what they clearly say.

 

[mark54]

Which is why if you read early church writings they took willful sin after repentance very seriously. Many denied a second repentance was even possible. They understood that Christ cannot be crucified again and again.

That is a very good question you have asked and I am glad you asked it.

I still try to grasp how a second repentance works in conjunction with recrucifying Christ because clearly in Revelation 2 and 3 people in the churches have left their first love and are called to do their first works. I believe that a second repentance is possible but finding it is not guaranteed because willfully sinning from a place of full knowledge is much more serious than sinning when in darkness.

The writer of Hebrews understood this and that is why he warned...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It is a very serious matter to have been sanctified by the blood and then to willfully sin against it. Many people pass over these warnings and push them from their minds because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 6 has a very similar warning in the context of "falling away."

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That verse pretty clearly states that a second repentance is impossible for those who fall away from the faith. Yet all things are possible with God right?

A brother who has been in the faith a long time told me that he has never seen someone who fell away come back into the faith. I am not saying it is not possible, just that this brother has never seen it.

I remember reading in Eusebius church history the following account of a second repentance involving John and a young man who fell away...


NPNF2-01. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

There is also this verse...

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Eze 18:26 paints the picture of a righteous man who turns back to wickedness but it says "and dieth in them" which appears to imply that he can still turn back.

Suffice to say that willful sin after an authentic salvation experience is very dangerous indeed. It is not the end of hope but for those who do it they are worse off than they were previously before their first repentance.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

That is what the Scriptures teach and I believe them. It also makes a lot of sense to me also.

Under the errors of modern theology the warnings of Heb 10:26-29, 2Pet 2:20-22, and Heb 6:4-6 lose all meaning. In fact the preachers are forced to twist those scriptures into something else entirely apart from what they clearly say.

Here is a trustworthy saying:If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

You need to discern the difference in the highlighted sentances

 

[zone]

A brother who has been in the faith a long time told me that he has never seen someone who fell away come back into the faith. I am not saying it is not possible, just that this brother has never seen it.

anyone you are calling brother has probably seen people he smashed to pieces with the Law day after day leave and find another group.

pharisees are always making that claim - "see? this man has left our lording over him. that's proof he is a sinner".

John 9
The Pharisees Investigate the Healing

13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath. 15Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

16Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?” So they were divided.

17Finally they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”

The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

18The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents. 19“Is this your son?” they asked. “Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?”

20“We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. 21But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christa would be put out of the synagogue. 23That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

24A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God,b” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”

25He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

26Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?”

28Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”

30The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. 32Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

34To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.

Spiritual Blindness

35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

~

John 17
Jesus Prays for Himself

1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6“I have revealed youa to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctifyb them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

 

[mark54]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
.

Note in the above verse, it says:
After we have received knowledge of the truth
If a person joins a church that preaches of a Gospel of saved by faith kept by works/obediance to the law, then they have not come to a knowledge of the truth

If a person comes to a knowledge of the truth, then they disowned Christ, that would be different, but note:
If we are faithless
He remains faithful
For he cannot disown his own

 

[Elin]

Where does Ro 3:25-26 say that Jesus took your punishment? It doesn't say that.

"He did it (presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement) to demonstrate his justice at the present time."

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation, through faith in his blood.
He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over (left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time,
so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

God demonstrated his justice on the sins which were left unpunished (passed over in the OT) by presenting Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement (reparation, amends) for the sins of those OT believers.

And not only for the sins of the OT believers, but also for the sins of the NT believers.

justice = merited punishment

for = substitution

passed over = merited punishment (justice) not administered

atonement= reparation, amends to, propitiation of justice by serving its sentence/punishment

You have not answered the following:

1) What "passed over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

Until you present a consistent and Biblical explanation of the questions above,

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)

"Go and learn what they mean." (Mt 9:13)

 

[Skinski7]

then you are in a lot of trouble.
you're the heretic who said God will not lower Himself to reconcile man to Himself.

you're the guy who doesn't know anything about the Baby Born of a virgin.
no clue why He came or what He did.

Why lie Zone?

Where did I say "God will not lower Himself to reconcile man to Himself"???????

Jesus came for this reason...

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus did this...

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So again please tell me where I made this statement or anything even remotely close to it, "God will not lower Himself to reconcile man to Himself."

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Anyway you actually believe that God has to reconcile Himself to man instead of man having to reconcile Himself to God now that I think about it. That is what the abstract judicial exchange of Penal Substitution does doesn't it? It leaves you "carnal and sold under sin" yet God "pretends" that you are righteous like Jesus. That pretty much sums up Penal Substitution.


Anyway you quoted some theologians who add to the word. Here is an example...

In 1 John 2:2; 4:10, Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used, hilasmos. Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covering it by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Compare Heb. 2:17, where the expression "make reconciliation" of the KJV is more correctly in the ASV "make propitiation").^[4]^

The Bible does not say that Jesus endured the "vicarious punishment" for our sins. That is a fancy theological term made up by men. The Bible teaches that He "bore our sins" not that "He bore the wrath of God for our sins." So while I guess it could be said that there is a vicarious nature to the atonement (in that Jesus offered Himself on our behalf) to connect the judicial punishment of God to it is clearly adding to the word. The Bible simple does not teach any such thing anywhere.

This quote of yours is actually a good one...

In Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5 the Greek word hilasterion (KJV, "mercy-seat") is used. It is the word employed by the Septuagint (LXX). translators in Ex. 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:21; 30:6). Hilasterion came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitiation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.^[3]^

The repentant sinner is the living sacrifice who enters boldly the Holy of Holies in a new and living way via the blood of Christ. Our consciences are sprinkled by the blood within the veil, Jesus being the mercy seat and us being the living sacrifice.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus bearing the wrath of God as your substitute. You cannot quote a single scripture anywhere in the Bible which says any such thing. The closest verse to that would be "we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God" but that is an allusion to the perspective of men. To claim that God literally poured out His wrath on Jesus Christ is to paint God as an unjust tyrant with an instatiable wrath which needs satisfaction no matter where it is metered out. It is ludicrous. Is it any wonder that such a doctrine was not even considered for the first 1600 years of church history?

This quote of yours is simply of a Reformed heretic stating that he thinks it means.

Propitiation
"Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering. In relation to soteriology, propitiation means placating or satisfying the wrath of God by the atoning sacrifice of Christ."

Charles C. Ryrie (1999-01-11). Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (Kindle Locations 5503-5504). Moody Publishers. Kindle Edition.

Does a Mormon quoting a Mormon Theologian validly prove that Mormonism is true? You can also quote Martin Luther to prove the "Blessed Exchange" but all it proves is that that is what Martin Luther believed. Likewise Charles C. Ryrie believes in the 400 year old Penal Substitution doctrine.

You can't prove it with Scripture so you turn to theologians.

Again Romans 3:25 says "PAST SINS" but because it contradicts what people believe that argue against it. The verse means what it says and it is in harmony with Isa 55:7, Jer 26:13, Pro 29:13, the parable of the Prodigal Son, Acts 3:19, and all the other scriptures which clearly teach that forgiveness is granted when the transgression is forsaken. Thus there is no possible way that "future" transgression is forgiven in advance. I understand people want to believe it but in doing so they have to reject the words of scripture.

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Is Paul lying?

Is Peter lying?

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

You quoted this verse Zone...

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If propitiation means that Jesus "bore the full wrath of God due the sinner and thus paid the sin debt owed" then why is not the WHOLE WORLD saved? Answer that!

Penal Substitution logically necessitates universal salvation or a limited atonement. That is one my my chief objections. There is no way around it. THe Reformers believe that the atonement is limited and thus have to twist "world" in 1Jn 2:2 as being the "elect" or something. I'd really like to see you answer my last question.

You quoted this verse...

1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Amen to that one.

I really like the verse that comes before...

Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

A parallel to this...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Skinski7]

Note in the above verse, it says:
After we have received knowledge of the truth
If a person joins a church that preaches of a Gospel of saved by faith kept by works/obediance to the law, then they have not come to a knowledge of the truth

If a person comes to a knowledge of the truth, then they disowned Christ, that would be different, but note:
If we are faithless
He remains faithful
For he cannot disown his own

You are disconnecting verse 26 from 29.

Verse 29 says this...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sanctification took place. It was not just a mental knowledge. The knowledge in verse 26 is clearly the full knowledge one receives when they come to the light and are redeemed.

 

[mark54]

You are disconnecting verse 26 from 29.

Verse 29 says this...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sanctification took place. It was not just a mental knowledge. The knowledge in verse 26 is clearly the full knowledge one receives when they come to the light and are redeemed.

Again, understand
the difference in the two highlighted statements below:

Here is a trustworthy saying:If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

 

[zone]

Anyway you actually believe that God has to reconcile Himself to man instead of man having to reconcile Himself to God now that I think about it. That is what the abstract judicial exchange of Penal Substitution does doesn't it? It leaves you "carnal and sold under sin" yet God "pretends" that you are righteous like Jesus. That pretty much sums up Penal Substitution.

LOLOL.

2 Corinthians 5
14For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.b The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

skinski has no clue what this is saying.

 

[SarahM777]

The Bible does not say that Jesus endured the "vicarious punishment" for our sins. That is a fancy theological term made up by men. The Bible teaches that He "bore our sins" not that "He bore the wrath of God for our sins." So while I guess it could be said that there is a vicarious nature to the atonement (in that Jesus offered Himself on our behalf) to connect the judicial punishment of God to it is clearly adding to the word. The Bible simple does not teach any such thing anywhere.

What then do you do with this

Isaiah 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By oppression[SUP][a][/SUP] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[SUP][c][/SUP] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[SUP][d][/SUP] and be satisfied[SUP][e][/SUP];
by his knowledge[SUP][f][/SUP] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[SUP][g][/SUP]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[SUP][h][/SUP]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Elin]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

You have not addressed this.

 

[Abiding]

do what? where do you get this?

hmmm starbucks?

 

[zone]

You are disconnecting verse 26 from 29.

Verse 29 says this...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sanctification took place. It was not just a mental knowledge. The knowledge in verse 26 is clearly the full knowledge one receives when they come to the light and are redeemed.

you just admitted you have no idea how the Atonement was accomplished, even though the entire sacrifical system instituted by God against whom man has sinned is the entire OT.

you don't understand it.

and yet here you are, in the Book which explains it, misusing it, because you do not understand it.

 

[starfield]

i would be appalled if that was what he was trying to teach. but he is trying to tell people that God will not forsake them if they are not perfect if they are in Christ they can repent and be forgiven.

Did you even listen to the video or take Skinski's word on what it says?

Yes I watched the video and it's very obvious that he was preaching a licentious doctrine. Any kind of doctrine that makes allowance for sin is of the devil (Jude 1:4).

If future sins are forgiven and forgotten in advance, why does God chastise/punish a believer for a sin He already forgave? Does this mean that the sin was brought back to remembrance or they were never forgiven to begin with? Think about it. Why were Ananias and Sapphira killed for that premeditated sin if it was forgiven and forgotten at their initial conversion? What about the people in the Corinthian church who died for taking the Holy Communion unworthily? Was that sin not pre-forgiven? Clearly, God only forgives sins up to the point of repentance and future ones have to be repented of to be forgiven. Believers don't get away with sin.

Forgiveness is contingent on an individual confessing and repenting of their sins and it's impossible to repent of a sin you haven't committed. Salvation is not just about being forgiven of your sins then going your merry way, it's about cleaving to God and living a transformed life afterwards. God does not forgive a sinner's future sins at initial conversion because He knows that this would give them a license to sin and they won't care to avoid all appearances of evil, they won't seek for righteousness, they won't repent of sins, it will basically foster spiritual laxity. Also, Jesus taught that we have to forgive others to be forgiven, so if a believer has an unforgiving spirit they will not receive forgiveness from God. Matt 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

he is talking to the people who think "yes CHrist forgave my sins yesterday but tommorrow when I mess up and sin, God is done with me. I am no longer forgiven. God doesn't want anything to do with me"

This sort of assertion is also not of God, but of Satan. The veil of the temple that was between man and God was torn when Jesus died on the cross giving us unlimited free access to the mercy seat to obtain forgiveness, so when a believer sins they should quickly repent and boldly approach the throne of grace to seek for pardon rather than saying "I give up, God is done with me".

that is the lie he is speaking against. instead people twist what he is saying into saying its ok to murder. which is a lie. don't know why people like to lie instead of listen and pray and ask God what is meant by the person's speech.

But the implication of his message is that a Christian CAN live in unrepentant sin whilst having ASSURANCE that that sin is forgiven. That is Satan's ploy to pull souls into hell. If anyone dies in their sins they will spend eternity with him. Do not be ignorant of his devices.

 

[Abiding]

Yes I watched the video and it's very obvious that he was preaching a licentious doctrine. Any kind of doctrine that makes allowance for sin is of the devil (Jude 1:4).

If future sins are forgiven and forgotten in advance, why does God chastise/punish a believer for a sin He already forgave? Does this mean that the sin was brought back to remembrance or they were never forgiven to begin with? Think about it. Why were Ananias and Sapphira killed for that premeditated sin if it was forgiven and forgotten at their initial conversion? What about the people in the Corinthian church who died for taking the Holy Communion unworthily? Was that sin not pre-forgiven? Clearly, God only forgives sins up to the point of repentance and future ones have to be repented of to be forgiven. Believers don't get away with sin.

Forgiveness is contingent on an individual confessing and repenting of their sins and it's impossible to repent of a sin you haven't committed. Salvation is not just about being forgiven of your sins then going your merry way, it's about cleaving to God and living a transformed life afterwards. God does not forgive a sinner's future sins at initial conversion because He knows that this would give them a license to sin and they won't care to avoid all appearances of evil, they won't seek for righteousness, they won't repent of sins, it will basically foster spiritual laxity. Also, Jesus taught that we have to forgive others to be forgiven, so if a believer has an unforgiving spirit they will not receive forgiveness from God. Matt 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


This sort of assertion is also not of God, but of Satan. The veil of the temple that was between man and God was torn when Jesus died on the cross giving us unlimited free access to the mercy seat to obtain forgiveness, so when a believer sins they should quickly repent and boldly approach the throne of grace to seek for pardon rather than saying "I give up, God is done with me".


But the implication of his message is that a Christian CAN live in unrepentant sin whilst having ASSURANCE that that sin is forgiven. That is Satan's ploy to pull souls into hell. If anyone dies in their sins they will spend eternity with him. Do not be ignorant of his devices.

Sin can be forgiven and still defile us, and can also carry consequences. It can also harden the heart and
cause us to drift and lose our relationship temporarily.

Thats why we confess our sins. Thats what the foot washing was all about. It has nothing
to do with our atonement.

So then thats one of the reason He chastises us.

 

[mark54]

You are disconnecting verse 26 from 29.

Verse 29 says this...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sanctification took place. It was not just a mental knowledge. The knowledge in verse 26 is clearly the full knowledge one receives when they come to the light and are redeemed.

Looking at this again, I think we are at cross purposes here, though maybe I am just tired and need some rest!

I was referring to the general point of Heb 10:26 that if a person sins wilfully after having come to a knowledge of the truth there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin. The person given in the example in Hebrews would have come to a knoweledge of the truth, I agree. But:
If someone joins a church and they preach a Gospel of saved by faith, kept by works/law they will not have come to a knowledge of the truth. Therefore if they turn completely away from the faith how can Heb10:26 apply to them as it is written? They never knew the truth in the first place

Now lets speak of a person who has come to know the truth of the Gospel

If they disown Christ
He will disown them
If they are faithless
He will remain faithful
For he cannot disown his own

So what could being faithless involve?

Well I guess a Christian can be overcome by some sin. They give in to it, but have a searing conscience for the Spirit has written the good and Holy laws of God on their heart and mind. They may for a time continue in that sin, all the time greatly troubled by what they are doing. They haven't disowned Christ, but are not being faithful to him. In their heart and mind they want to follow him, but their flesh is for a time in charge, it has won a battle.
God, allows the situation to deteriorate, he knows they have not disowned his son, but are walking after the flesh, I repeat, albeit with a burdening conscience. God loves them too much to let them get away with therir folly, and so after a time(no stipulation as to how long) the situation becomes so dire they come to God, chastened, and bow the knee, ready to give Him first place in their life.
As Paul says:
Christ has remained faithful, though the convert was faithless

Someone else comes to know the truth. They understand the wonderful truth of the Gospel, but then in their heart turns completely against Christ, they reject him. They do not turn away simply because a sin of the flesh has over come them, but they in their heart reject/disown Christ. In such a situation I would say there is no comming back, but that is a vastly different situation from someone being 'faithless'/weak in the flesh. This person is wilfully deliberatle sining because they disowned/turned away/rejected Christ. The other person was weak and faithless, but did not want in their heart and mind to disown Christ, big difference.
And so I suppose it that is true, OSAS must hang on whether a person could fully understand the glorious truth of the Gospel and then reject Christ. As I never discuss OSAS I won't give you my opinion!

Now before you tell me the faithless person had been cast aside for good, what is your differing interpretaion of the faithless person, and the one who rejects Christ?

Of course, if you accept my explanation, you don't have to believe in a person recrucifying Christ(not sure that's biblical anyway) for Christ remained faithful to the weak convert who erred, but the one who disowned him had no way back

Troouble is Skinski, as I told you, the bible is a blue print, manual if you like for how we should live, and have victory in the faith, but you have to allow for that to be worked out in weak, fallible human beings in bodies of weak flesh. Your Gospel only works as you would like if we were born robots, then we could have been preprogrammed to perfectly obey
Think about it

 

[Ariel82]

But the implication of his message is that a Christian CAN live in unrepentant sin whilst having ASSURANCE that that sin is forgiven. That is Satan's ploy to pull souls into hell. If anyone dies in their sins they will spend eternity with him. Do not be ignorant of his devices.

implication is another way of saying you are assuming that is what he is saying, when if you did a little research you would see it is not. He clearly teaches about repentance but you can only cover so much in 5 minutes without people getting confused about the message you are trying to show them in scripture. it seems petty that you are not willing to look at his other sermons and instead would condemn him along with skinski as a wolf.

The ASSURANCE is that the sin WILL BE forgiven if they repent and Jesus will be their Advocate in Heaven.

 

[zone]

What then do you do with this

Isaiah 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By oppression[SUP][a][/SUP] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[SUP][c][/SUP] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[SUP][d][/SUP] and be satisfied[SUP][e][/SUP];
by his knowledge[SUP][f][/SUP] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[SUP][g][/SUP]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[SUP][h][/SUP]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

oh...you ignore it guess.