Can Someone Explain Rev. 12:1-6 to Me?

[cfultz3]

Since Satan is the accuser of the brethren and since we are not under the Law for him to accuse us of being transgressors, I would think, since he has no tool to accuse us, that he has been thrown down as the accuser.

 

[peterT]

peterT, I'm going to send you a friend request. Consider me your first friend. We're going to make it work. It's natural for bucks to lock horns at times but in Christianity there is God's love for one another and that also honors Christ and His sacrifice. Peace.

I can’t argue with love

 

[peterT]

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefull use you, and persecute you;
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The muslims have declared jihad on all Christians, so while I do not consider anyone including muslims my enemy, but instead consider them to be an enemy of the gospel it is obvious they consider us to be theirs. Doesn't scripture tell us to love our enemies, even if we don't choose for them to be an enemy? Doesn't scripture tell us to spread the gospel to everyone? Doesn't showing the truth of the gospel demonstrate our love to those who choose to be our enemies? Do you have any scripture that shows doulos is wrong or are you just making it up as usual because you don't have anything productive to add to the conservation?

1Christianwarrior316

I was referring to the first part of his statement.

Most Christians would know that the second part of his statement was right

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Those who recognize the truth of this book .

 

[Therapon]

I've seen so much nonsense from neo-revisionists trying to make a name for themselves or even just finish a PhD which, as you know, requires one to bring something new to the table but far too often is a fictionalized, contrived, politically correct "new" that doesn't really exist.

How true! So how do you get a DTh? Not by learning to know the Lord, surely, or even by learning His word, but by taking three years of Greek and Hebrew and by reading the so-called church fathers, plus Jerome, Augustine, Phineas Dake or whoever depending on denominational preference, and by being immersed in the traditions of men.

 

[Therapon]

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[SUP][a][/SUP] in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

OK SO IS SATAN STILL IN HEAVEN? Why does this say that he will be cast out if he is already supposedly cast out?

Thesae two verses state Satan was cast out of heaven at the time of the Cross . . .

Luke 10:18 "And he (Jesus) said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out (of heaven)."

 

[Elin]

Actually eternally-grateful, neither history nor Scripture supports the interpretations you are giving to these things. You are reading into them meaning that makes sense to you, but these interpretations cannot be found elsewhere in Scripture, and do not in fact correspond to actual history.



But that's not true. The decree of Cyrus is dated to 539 B.C. and it was the decree of Cyrus to rebuild and restore Jerusalem that is specifically stated by Ezra 1:16, 6:1-5, Isaiah 44:23-45:8, and 2 Chronicles 36:22-23. The history of Cyrus's conquest over Babylon and the establishment of the Persian Empire is well know and documented from not only textual evidence but archaeological as well. Here's a photo of the very cylinder, called the Karush Prism, or Cyrus Cylinder, that the prophets said Cyrus woud make, and that he "would put it in writing." Here it is:

View attachment 41097

This was the "decree" the prophets spoke of, and they actually quoted it.

So it was not in fact 483 years from the decree of Cyrus to the Trimphant Entry into Jerusalem by Jesus. It was 569 years, if you count consecutive years. But Daniel's 70 weeks may not be speaking of consecutive years. They are divided into 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, a total of 70 weeks but not necessarily consecutive weeks. So the truth is these weeks of Daniel are not so cut and dried as some insist they are and trying to base our understanding of prophecy on such things is laying a very shaky foundation. It's better to base our understanding of prophecy on the Gospel, which is after all the "light" that gives us knowledge and understanding in these things, not math and not dates.




Again, that's not true. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, Nisan 10, and was crucified on Friday, Nisan 15. That wasn't 7 days after his triumphant entry, it was 5 days later.



But that's not what Daniel said. He said Messiah would be cut off "after 62 weeks," not at the end of 69 weeks. Again, you are assuming these are consecutive weeks despite the fact they historically could not have occurred consecutively.

What is glaringly apparent is that the 70th week, in which the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed and the sacrifice and oblation would cease was the 7-year Roman/Jewish war in which the city and the sanctuary were destroyed and the sacrifice and oblation ceased. It is much more simple then to calculate backwards. The war began in 66 and ended in 73, the 70th week. So calculating backwards, Jesus was crucified during the 64th week. The phrase "after 62 weeks" is not a definitive time but as with much of this type of prophecy God intentionally made it obscure enough so that no one could exactly figure out the date of Messiah else they would not have crucified Jesus. But we have the advantage of being able to look back and see how all these things were fulfilled and can base our understanding not on speculation using math and dates, but on the actual fulfillment of these events that occurred in the generation of Jesus' first coming.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Superb post!

 

[Elin]

But let me say too, that my views are not "propped up" solely by one fact, they are the fruit of many years of study of primarily the doctrines of the Gospel, and secondarily the doctrines of prophecy which the Gospel of Jesus is the subject of, and lastly the doctrines of eschatology, which the Gospel of Jesus is the best explanation of. So with the Gospel and it's doctrines being my first love, I tend to have a "let the chips fall where they may" attitude toward eschatology.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

What a wonderful presentation!

 

[Elin]

ellis, i've had a change of heart about what i consider false doctrine.
who am i to say?

and what does it really matter.

i'd like to apologize to you. you have every right to teach jews don't know the Name of Jesus.

there must be something really wrong with me, because everywhere i read, and all the jews i talk to know Jesus by Name.

but maybe i'm in a coma or something

sorry about maligning you.
you might be right.

No need to discount God's judgment of blindness on unbelieving Israel.

There is no other name under heaven by which we are saved, and that includes judgmentally blinded unbelieving Israel.

 

[zone]

What is glaringly apparent is that the 70th week, in which the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed and the sacrifice and oblation would cease was the 7-year Roman/Jewish war in which the city and the sanctuary were destroyed and the sacrifice and oblation ceased. It is much more simple then to calculate backwards. The war began in 66 and ended in 73, the 70th week. So calculating backwards, Jesus was crucified during the 64th week. The phrase "after 62 weeks" is not a definitive time but as with much of this type of prophecy God intentionally made it obscure enough so that no one could exactly figure out the date of Messiah else they would not have crucified Jesus. But we have the advantage of being able to look back and see how all these things were fulfilled and can base our understanding not on speculation using math and dates, but on the actual fulfillment of these events that occurred in the generation of Jesus' first coming.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

hi Pilgrimer,
though i disagree with you that the 70 weeks are not consecutive, that's not crucial for me.
you appear to have them completely fulfilled, according to prophecy.


what i would like your assessment of, are these questions:

- is there any possibility Daniel's 70th week stretches through Redemptive History after the 69th ended; or began in 1948 or 1967; or is unfolding now in 2013 or is yet future to us?

- is this about Jesus or is it about an antichrist/satanic figure?: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"


Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


zone

 

[zone]

No need to discount God's judgment of blindness on unbelieving Israel.

There is no other name under heaven by which we are saved, and that includes judgmentally blinded unbelieving Israel.

ya...the parody wasn't working.

everyone has reasons for choosing one set of beliefs over another.
we all decide i suppose.

Elin....do you suppose God has revealed to us as of 1948 or so a soteriology the church has never understood?

 

[Elin]

ya...the parody wasn't working.

everyone has reasons for choosing one set of beliefs over another.
we all decide i suppose.

Elin....do you suppose God has revealed to us as of 1948 or so a soteriology the church has never understood?

The faith was once for all delivered to the saints (2Ti 1:13) by the apostles.

There is no new revelation after what is recorded in the NT.

 

[zone]

The faith was once for all delivered to the saints (2Ti 1:13) by the apostles.

There is no new revelation after what is recorded in the NT.

thank you.
could you offer your understanding of this passage?

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

 

[Mark51]

The two opposing organizations symbolize Jehovah’s heavenly organization as pictured by the “woman who was about to give birth” (wife) ; and, Satan’s demonic organization symbolized by a “fiery-colored dragon” that challenges God’s sovereignty. The great issue of sovereignty is the challenge here. The “birth’ is Jehovah’s new born “kingdom,” or new government with Jesus enthroned as King. This instrument for sanctifying His holy name.-Revelation 12:3-6, 10.