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Well mark, I am grateful you think so LOL but honestly i am still a new christian. And like i said its really god not me i just repeat what he says. I am just like everyone only i see god with my heart not by knowledge or even faith. because i no longer have faith, just a deep and loving bond with the lord. i am wanting everyone else to have this as well, this is something one cannot keep to themselves, ppl just aren't willing to listen
A
dig deeper into the Word of God and place deeper roots. Mature in a local body/ church and no wind of doctrine from men will undermine your faith.
Learn to discern good from evil, move from the milk to the meat of scripture.
Ephesians 4
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, [SUP]13[/SUP]till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; [SUP]14 [/SUP]that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, [SUP]15 [/SUP]but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— [SUP]16 [/SUP]from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Learn to discern good from evil, move from the milk to the meat of scripture.
Ephesians 4
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, [SUP]13[/SUP]till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; [SUP]14 [/SUP]that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, [SUP]15 [/SUP]but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— [SUP]16 [/SUP]from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
T
Here are my questions:
Here are the questions that I have asked before. No response?????
How much room do the scriptures leave for soteriological difference between Jew and Gentile?
Does anyone have any scripture references where salvation is given to first-century Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in "Messiah"?
Do we have historical instances where Messianic Jews accepted into their congregations Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in Messiah?
Are you saying that Romans teaches that natural revelation and human conscience provide a witness that makes it unnecessary to believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and dwelt among us? Do you believe that people who believe in the Christ, but who deny that Jesus is that Christ, have sufficient light and need no warning from the church?
Here is the "answer"
Not a single one of my questions has been addressed.
Here are the questions that I have asked before. No response?????
How much room do the scriptures leave for soteriological difference between Jew and Gentile?
Does anyone have any scripture references where salvation is given to first-century Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in "Messiah"?
Do we have historical instances where Messianic Jews accepted into their congregations Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in Messiah?
Are you saying that Romans teaches that natural revelation and human conscience provide a witness that makes it unnecessary to believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and dwelt among us? Do you believe that people who believe in the Christ, but who deny that Jesus is that Christ, have sufficient light and need no warning from the church?
Here is the "answer"
Not a single one of my questions has been addressed.
And this has not been answered either,Jesus tells them why
John 6
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, [SUP]38 [/SUP]nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.[SUP]39 [/SUP]You study[SUP][c][/SUP] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, [SUP]40 [/SUP]yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“I do not accept glory from human beings, [SUP]42 [/SUP]but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. [SUP]43 [/SUP]I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[SUP][d][/SUP]?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Paul wrote this
Romans 3
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.[SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP][i][/SUP] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— [SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, [SUP]30 [/SUP]since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
And Jesus said the work of God is to BELIEVE IN THE ONE whom God sent.
John 6
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, [SUP]38 [/SUP]nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.[SUP]39 [/SUP]You study[SUP][c][/SUP] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, [SUP]40 [/SUP]yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“I do not accept glory from human beings, [SUP]42 [/SUP]but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. [SUP]43 [/SUP]I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[SUP][d][/SUP]?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Paul wrote this
Romans 3
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.[SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP][i][/SUP] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— [SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, [SUP]30 [/SUP]since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
And Jesus said the work of God is to BELIEVE IN THE ONE whom God sent.
T
Here are the questions that I have asked before. No response?????
Oh, I answered you alright. Just not in detail.
How much room do the scriptures leave for soteriological difference between Jew and Gentile?
There is no difference, all those who are saved are saved by the Lord Jesus. New Testament believer with knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Old Testament Jew without that knowledge. In Jesus’ talk with Nicodemus, the Lord is stated, “except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then this remarkable statement, “you are a ruler of the Jews and you don’t understand these things?” Jesus’ cross was still in the future, yet he expected Nicodemus to understand the born-again principle. It would have been impossible for Nicodemus to understand the born-again principle if it was not in effect before the cross, therefore Old Testament believers were born-again just like we are. I believe Scripture teaches that New Testament Jews in that same spiritual condition can also be born-again.
Does anyone have any scripture references where salvation is given to first-century Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in "Messiah"?
In my opinion, this is the more correct question: Is a Jew, sovereignly blinded to the Gospel by sovereign God, Romans 11:8, responsible for not believing it in truths he is not permitted to see? Romans 4:15 states, “when there is no law there is no transgression.”
Do we have historical instances where Messianic Jews accepted into their congregations Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in Messiah?
Not that I know of, but I believe that is because the truths we are discussing here are not generally understood.
Are you saying that Romans teaches that natural revelation and human conscience provide a witness that makes it unnecessary to believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and dwelt among us?
Of course not. And I’m not making doctrine either, my words are valueless. I’m just quoting scriptures and asking you to believe them, Romans 2:19, Romans 4:15, Romans 11:11, Romans 11:28-29. It’s easy to believe those verses that fit orthodox doctrine, but it takes a Berean heart to believe those that don’t. It is faulty exegesis to use one verse to disprove another, both are the Word of God. The key to truth is to find how they reconcile because both are true. So why not accept the verses I quoted at face value and believe them? Of course that would make your pariah like me, but it’s worth it because you’d keep the only Friend who counts.
Do you believe that people who believe in the Christ, but who deny that Jesus is that Christ, have sufficient light and need no
warning from the church?
Neither Jew nor Gentile can believe that Jesus is the Christ, except us through a revelation of the Holy Spirit. So in my opinion your question should be: has the Holy Spirit revealed that our New Testament Jesus is the Christ to the Jewish people whom God has sovereignly blinded? If not, they are not responsible for rejecting it, Romans 4:15. The key issue is did God really blind the Jewish people of the Christian era to the Gospel.Romans 11:8 states that He did so I accept it at face value.
Oh, I answered you alright. Just not in detail.
How much room do the scriptures leave for soteriological difference between Jew and Gentile?
There is no difference, all those who are saved are saved by the Lord Jesus. New Testament believer with knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Old Testament Jew without that knowledge. In Jesus’ talk with Nicodemus, the Lord is stated, “except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then this remarkable statement, “you are a ruler of the Jews and you don’t understand these things?” Jesus’ cross was still in the future, yet he expected Nicodemus to understand the born-again principle. It would have been impossible for Nicodemus to understand the born-again principle if it was not in effect before the cross, therefore Old Testament believers were born-again just like we are. I believe Scripture teaches that New Testament Jews in that same spiritual condition can also be born-again.
Does anyone have any scripture references where salvation is given to first-century Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in "Messiah"?
In my opinion, this is the more correct question: Is a Jew, sovereignly blinded to the Gospel by sovereign God, Romans 11:8, responsible for not believing it in truths he is not permitted to see? Romans 4:15 states, “when there is no law there is no transgression.”
Do we have historical instances where Messianic Jews accepted into their congregations Jews who rejected Jesus Christ but believed in Messiah?
Not that I know of, but I believe that is because the truths we are discussing here are not generally understood.
Are you saying that Romans teaches that natural revelation and human conscience provide a witness that makes it unnecessary to believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and dwelt among us?
Of course not. And I’m not making doctrine either, my words are valueless. I’m just quoting scriptures and asking you to believe them, Romans 2:19, Romans 4:15, Romans 11:11, Romans 11:28-29. It’s easy to believe those verses that fit orthodox doctrine, but it takes a Berean heart to believe those that don’t. It is faulty exegesis to use one verse to disprove another, both are the Word of God. The key to truth is to find how they reconcile because both are true. So why not accept the verses I quoted at face value and believe them? Of course that would make your pariah like me, but it’s worth it because you’d keep the only Friend who counts.
Do you believe that people who believe in the Christ, but who deny that Jesus is that Christ, have sufficient light and need no
warning from the church?
Neither Jew nor Gentile can believe that Jesus is the Christ, except us through a revelation of the Holy Spirit. So in my opinion your question should be: has the Holy Spirit revealed that our New Testament Jesus is the Christ to the Jewish people whom God has sovereignly blinded? If not, they are not responsible for rejecting it, Romans 4:15. The key issue is did God really blind the Jewish people of the Christian era to the Gospel.Romans 11:8 states that He did so I accept it at face value.
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P
It’s a nice thought that the Jews are saved.
But you would have to ignore the teachings of john to believe that.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
And more importantly you would have to ignore the teachings Jesus himself on the subject of salvation and everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
But you would have to ignore the teachings of john to believe that.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
And more importantly you would have to ignore the teachings Jesus himself on the subject of salvation and everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
T
One more time . . . I’m not making doctrine, my words are valueless. I’m just quoting scriptures and asking you to believe them, Romans 2:19, Romans 4:15, Romans 11:11, Romans 11:28-29. It’s easy to believe verses that fit orthodox doctrine, but it takes a Berean heart to believe those that don’t. It is faulty exegesis to use one verse to disprove another, both are the Word of God. The key to truth is to find how they reconcile because both are true. So why not accept the verses I quoted at face value and believe them?
T
Thank you for answering my questions. I understand that when there are hundreds of posts you (the OP) assume that the answers have been given and consider it repetition to quote and answer each post anew.
If God overlooked the blindness of Jews in NT times, He would have done the same in the first century as he does in the 21st. The issue of Jews and gentiles in the same local church is a theme dealt with extensively in scripture. Nowhere in the apostolic church do we see the Jewish part of the congregation given permission to be blind to the identity of Jesus as the Christ. First century Jews were exhorted to accept Jesus as the Christ, to the point of martyrdom. That is the clear apostolic testimony. First century missionaries would often (always?) go to the Jews first, preaching..... "you have been blinded by God and can not see Jesus so we won't bother to preach Him to you"?....No- that never was the apostolic message to Jews.
Since you regard Jews as having been blinded by God to the point that they bear no moral responsibility to accept Jesus as Lord, you have parted from the Apostolic message. "Jesus whom you crucified" was preached to both Jew and Gentile in the first century. What has happened since then that you would withhold preaching Jesus to blinded Jews?
If God overlooked the blindness of Jews in NT times, He would have done the same in the first century as he does in the 21st. The issue of Jews and gentiles in the same local church is a theme dealt with extensively in scripture. Nowhere in the apostolic church do we see the Jewish part of the congregation given permission to be blind to the identity of Jesus as the Christ. First century Jews were exhorted to accept Jesus as the Christ, to the point of martyrdom. That is the clear apostolic testimony. First century missionaries would often (always?) go to the Jews first, preaching..... "you have been blinded by God and can not see Jesus so we won't bother to preach Him to you"?....No- that never was the apostolic message to Jews.
Since you regard Jews as having been blinded by God to the point that they bear no moral responsibility to accept Jesus as Lord, you have parted from the Apostolic message. "Jesus whom you crucified" was preached to both Jew and Gentile in the first century. What has happened since then that you would withhold preaching Jesus to blinded Jews?
H
Read your Bible that is the Truth.
Welcome
Welcome
enjoy, dive in and grow! <><Very well expressed, lovely. Thank you, and always be blessed in Jesus.......amen
I totally agree, welcome, where ever people are gathered there will be debate, especially a group of Christians, who care so passionately about their God, they want to share the good news and are driven to share their discoveries. This is not bad, there have been so many errors taught over the years by men, which is still happening! We sometimes need to be challenged by man, to turn back to the Word and look again. There is nothing wicked in this. This is a safe place, you can learn a lot and reject a lot, just stay in the Word, it will help you be discerning and to divide the Word, to see the Truth. I think mostly here all are well meaning but as new Christians it is an important lesson to learn that not all will be correct in their views. But, it is good to discuss and explore and to not stay closed to the possibility we may not have everything right... enjoy, dive in and grow! <><
enjoy, dive in and grow! <><