Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[Elin]

how does one who is unregenerated become regenerated: by hearkening to the conviction of of the Spirit to turn to Jesus

Regeneration is spiritual rebirth by life of the Holy Spirit.

So is the Holy Spirit who convicts the unregenerate within them before they have the Holy Spirit life of rebirth?

It is within the reasoning of man to choose good or evil,

Our wills are governed by our dispositions.

Unregenerate man uses his reason to justify the choices of his disposition.

to choose life or death, to choose God or self. Much in the same way that Adam and Even chose evil over good, disobedience over obedience, death over life.

This is really unorthodox stuff.

Adam and Eve possessed Holy Spirit life and did not have a corrupt sinful disposition.

They do not equate to unregenerate mankind.

Freewill = choose you this day between good or evil, life or death...Choose you this day Grace or the Law, choose you this day God's way or your way.

This was addressed in Part II on free will.

You can't discuss Part II when you aren't familiar with it.

What is a part of God's name?

You need to review that discussion also.
It's all there.

 

[Abiding]

Ive been in this thread too long, someone said, whats the difference..
ha..oh well, bye! If i care to show the difference ill start a
thread. I dont want to rattle folk in their, whatever.

 

[Elin]

I dont have any parameters for your truth. I was just wanting to know.
But i wont any longer.

All one dynamic event? Ill accept that as your answer.
Would have been easier to just have said "yes" but
i understand a guy can expect too much.

I prefer to base it on Scripture, not something outside it.

 

[Elin]

Boooooooooooooo.

But your Lordship Salvation doctrine is a skeeery, skeery jig-a-ma-lig.

I don't think you know what Lordship salvation is.

 

[cfultz3]

Regeneration is spiritual rebirth by life of the Holy Spirit.

So is the Holy Spirit who convicts the unregenerate within them before they have the Holy Spirit life of rebirth?

The Spirit is given to those who are the sons of God as a sealing of their sonhood (Gal 4:6). If they are not reborn as a child of God, then they do not yet have the Spirit. But, we understand that the Spirit does convict the world of sin (Joh 16:8). So, I would have to say no that the unregenerated do not have the Holy Spirit, but does have Him as a Convictor and One who is beckoning them turn around to the Light (Jesus Christ).

Our wills are governed by our dispositions. Unregenerate man uses his reason to justify the choices of his disposition.
This is really unorthodox stuff.

Psychologically, you are correct. But in the spirituality of it, a man can still choose whom His lord shall be based on his disposition of choosing the Truth over the lie. The way I justify my disposition to choose God over the lie is that in having chosen by flesh over Him, I see nothing but the vanity of it in having made that choice. As far as that thought is considered, even a regenerated person uses his reasoning to justify his dispositional choice as I did.

Adam and Eve possessed Holy Spirit life and did not have a corrupt sinful disposition.

Yet they had reasoning and by that reasoning they made a choice of one side over the other. If Adam and Eve had the Holy Spirit, then that would lean credence to the fact that we are not pre-determined in our eternal destination, seeing that if they (we) were, then that choice of disobedience would not have ended in them having to exit a very real fellowship with God. But, it does say that we are to choose between God and the lie and that each has it consequences.

This was addressed in Part II on free will.

You can't discuss Part II when you aren't familiar with it.

I am not discussing any particular part of your parts, but as you respond, I respond to what you said in that reply.

You need to review that discussion also.
It's all there.

Again, I respond to what you write at the moment. If you wish to talk about that part II, then by all means, let us.

 

[GreenNnice]

I don't think you know what Lordship salvation is.

No


Care to explain that part about Adam and Eve having 'Holy Spirit life' while you let me know if you believe in Lordship Salvation.

 

[unclefester]

Amen, He still got his plan going, He wanted Israel to do it, but they were not willing, so he gave it to the gentiles.

Our God is an awesome God.

Should I ? Should I ?? What the heck ... you can handle it EG ... lol I was just wondering what would happen if us gentiles were not willing either ?

 

[Elin]

Adam and Eve possessed Holy Spirit life and did not have a corrupt sinful disposition.

Yet they had reasoning and by that reasoning they made a choice of one side over the other.

So his "reasoning" operated independently of any influence?

So how do you think his "reasoning" process would have gone in making that choice?

If Adam and Eve had the Holy Spirit, then that would lean credence to the fact that

we are not pre-determined in our eternal destination, seeing that

if they (we) were, then that choice of disobedience would not have ended in them having to exit a very real fellowship with God.

Having Holy Spirit life from the beginning of your life (Adam) does not relate to having no Holy Spirit life (we) from the beginning of your life.
One can show nothing about the similarity of the other.

Nor does it follow from being created with Holy Spirit life that they were not predestined and, therefore, would not have been driven out of the garden.

I don't follow the dots there.

This was addressed in Part II on free will.

You can't discuss Part II when you aren't familiar with it.

I am not discussing any particular part of your parts, but as you respond, I respond to what you said in that reply.

What I wrote "at the moment" was based in Part II.

If you want to understand my meaning, then you have to be familiar with that in which it is based.
Don't expect me to explain it all over again.

 

[Elin]

No
Care to explain that part about Adam and Eve having 'Holy Spirit life' while you
let me know if you believe in Lordship Salvation.

Please explain what you mean by Lordship salvation and how it relates to Adam and Eve being created with Holy Spirit life.

I can't answer your question until I understand what you are asking.

 

[GreenNnice]

Please explain what you mean by Lordship salvation and how it relates to Adam and Eve being created with Holy Spirit life.

I can't answer your question until I understand what you are asking.

Makes sense: If Adam and Eve had the Holy Spirit,then that would lean credence to the fact that

we are not pre-determined in our eternal destination,seeing that

if they (we) were, then that choice of disobedience would not have ended in them having to exit a very real fellowship with God.

Garbled: Having Holy Spirit life from the beginning of your life (Adam) does not relate to having no Holy Spirit life (we) from the beginning of your life. One can show nothing about the similarity of the other.

Nor does it follow from being created with Holy Spirit life that they were not predestined and, therefore, would not have been driven out of the garden.

I don't follow the dots there .


.............The other 'master' would LOVE to have you serve him ..........

Satan is real, he is out there, and, Scripture is fraught with people having chosen him , and, so is real life today fraught with people choosing serving THAT master.
Satan is beyond sneaky, too, even telling you, the Christian, "Oh, I don't really exist today, I was around in bible times and that is all. When Christ died on cross He took care of me EVER being able to leave my deathbed, haha-ha, ha,ha,ha,haha-ha-ha....."

Oh, yes, with those kind of very lines, nilE, he will LAUGH you all the way to hell

Man must make a spiritual choice to serve Christ, anything morally done is not done in the Spirit, we are to follow Him; the Lord leads . "...you follow Me." John 21:22



--------------------
The Holy Spirit is our Helper, not, dictator of our life, we dictate, but He orchestrates success. NilE, you have a choice: choose His success for your life, or, not.

No ones stopping you from choosing The Devil, you can, but the Holy Spirit will provide you a way out IF you so choose his temptations.

God desires us to serve Him, but Scripture is clear, too, God does not tempt us, EVER, to do things that are not FULLY in His control of your life by His Spirit in you providing a way of ESCAPE through the temptation (to sin), or, to leave His side.

Why do His leave His side EVER ?

GOD is sovereign; He is faithful to Himself, cannot be otherwise. But, you, YES! you have THE CHOICE to serve Him or serve Satan in YOUR life.

The Lord leads, with MUCH grace abounding OVER your sin, MUCH mercy given, and, not just given sometimes but given, as He leads, daily . Right? His mercies are 'new every morning.'

So, before you go off on a God's foreknowledge kick, keep in mind that God gave man the knowledge to follow Him or not, from Adam and Eve on.

And, the cross though, indeed, changing things, did NOT change God's freewill determinism that He started with Adam and Eve's choice and Noah , Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc. who shaped our human history.


Nothing has changed, NilE, with God's allowing men to use their minds to serve Him. What does 1 Corinthians 2 tell us. We can never know God's thoughts (Isaiah 55: 8-9) , but what do we have, that God, who is the SAME today as yesterday as forevermore?

What?

Paul said that we cannot have God's mind nor ever have ANY hope of knowing His thoughts, ways, as Isaiah, too, said, but "we have the mind of Christ."

 

[cfultz3]

So his "reasoning" operated independently of any influence?

So how do you think his "reasoning" process would have gone in making that choice?

I remember saying that you were psychologically correct in saying that we are influenced by our surroundings. But, I did make a distinction as concerning the spiritual side of that. Here we have Adam and Even existing in the most perfect example of what one would consider utopia, yet, by their reasoning, they chose what they knew would be detrimental to them, both psychically and spiritually. What of their surroundings gave them a reason to leave what they had behind? Nothing I can think of. But now, spiritually, something happened to give them a reason to do what they did. They knew that if they ate from it, they would become like the gods and know good and evil. The point is, by their reasoning they spiritually decided.

Having Holy Spirit life from the beginning of your life (Adam) does not relate to having no Holy Spirit life (we) from the beginning of your life. One can show nothing about the similarity of the other.

This is a brand new doctrine which I have never heard of: having the 'Holy Spirit Life' from the beginning of life. I do, however, know that God breathe into Adams nose and he became a living soul. But that breath (the air we breathe) is not the Holy Spirit. Maybe you mean something else?

Nor does it follow from being created with Holy Spirit life that they were not predestined and, therefore, would not have been driven out of the garden.

Again, with that introduction of that 'Holy Spirit Life' doctrine, I cannot begin to see where you are coming from.

What I wrote "at the moment" was based in Part II.

If you want to understand my meaning, then you have to be familiar with that in which it is based.
Don't expect me to explain it all over again.

I will put this way, I don't have to learn your whole ism (there are plenty others who will comply to this, the ism lovers) to understand that your doctrine teaches faith and hope is a lost cause (and so many other things), seeing you are teaching that no matter what you do in life, you will end up where you were predestined to be. This along has so many implications of causing death and not giving life to those who do believe. The underlying theory behind your doctrine would have God judging Himself since He is the reason and cause of wickedness so that He could have those He doomed to do wickedly so that they could be judged as wicked. This doctrine of yours will also have Christ brought down from the cross. There are many other implications of: why even have judgment, why have the fear of God, why the walk on the narrow path, why the Holy Spirit, why the warnings, etc........ if our destiny is pre-determined.

The main theme of your doctrine is based on the pre-determination of God's salvational plan He had foreordained through Christ. Everyone understands that all the prophecies concerning the Christ in the Old Testament was ordained to happen and they did happen. But, you take a leap further and say that even all things are pre-determined.

I don't have to learn your ism to see where it leads. But, by all means, wherever you wish the conversation to go, just start talking about it.

 

[psychomom]

Man must make a spiritual choice to serve Christ, anything morally done is not done in the Spirit, we are to follow Him; the Lord leads . "...you follow Me." John 21:22

hey, Greenie.

since you quoted what the Lord Jesus said to His disciples (the Apsotles)
i was wondering if you knew of anyone in scripture to whom Jesus said that who did not do what He commanded?

those men left everything...their families, their belongings, their jobs, to follow Christ.
we don't have indication that they knew Him well before this.
they just DID it, yeah?

why do you suppose that was?

thanks,
ellie

 

[GreenNnice]

hey, Greenie.

since you quoted what the Lord Jesus said to His disciples (the Apsotles)
i was wondering if you knew of anyone in scripture to whom Jesus said that who did not do what He commanded?

those men left everything...their families, their belongings, their jobs, to follow Christ.
we don't have indication that they knew Him well before this.
they just DID it, yeah?

why do you suppose that was?

thanks,
ellie

Many have not done what Jesus commanded. That's OK, too, we are with sin, all.

We are to follow Him. The Lord leads, psychomommy. Put your feet forward in faith, and, literally taking this passage is wise or unwise, that is up to Him, who will, always, speak in you

The apostles, all but one (Judas Iscariot), believed in Jesus before He died on the cross.
"One of you is of The Devil" is what Jesus said at 'The Last Supper.'

Either you are with Jesus as your master, or, The Devil.


You can not have it both ways as Scripture is replete with examples of this truth, we will love one (master) and hate the other.

 

[Nancyer]

Great points. There's a great little book on this that our church used as Bible Study called The Will Of God. (by Leslie D. Weatherhead) It covered the Intentional Will of God, the Circumstantial Will of God and the Ultimate Will of God. and explained how He uses man to accomplish His will through these. Very enlightening, easy to understand, cleared up a lot of questions for me and I've used it in discussions with others, both believers and non believers alike.

 

[Elin]

So, before you go off on a God's foreknowledge kick, keep in mind that
God gave man the knowledge to follow Him or not, from Adam and Eve on.

It's not about knowledge, it's about spiritual power.

No one but Adam is born with Holy Spirit life, which gives the spiritual power to follow God.
We are born without Holy Spirit life and, therefore, in our unregenerate state are spiritually powerless to obey God (Ro 5:6, 8:7-8).

And you have not explained what you mean by Lordship salvation.

I'm sorry, but I'm unable to follow your line of thought Biblically, or rationally.

 

[Elin]

I remember saying that you were psychologically correct in saying that we are influenced by our surroundings. But, I did make a distinction as concerning the spiritual side of that. Here we have Adam and Even existing in the most perfect example of what one would consider utopia, yet, by their reasoning, they chose what they knew would be detrimental to them, both psychically and spiritually. What of their surroundings gave them a reason to leave what they had behind? Nothing I can think of. But now, spiritually, something happened to give them a reason to do what they did.
They knew that if they ate from it, they would become like the gods and know good and evil. The point is,

by their reasoning they spiritually decided.

That's not the way the Bible presents it.

Adam was not deceived (1Ti 2:14) into thinking he would become like God.
He ate the fruit because of Eve, not because of his "reasoning." (Ge 3:6, 12, 13).

This is a brand new doctrine which I have never heard of: having the 'Holy Spirit Life' from the beginning of life. I do, however, know that God breathe into Adams nose and he became a living soul. But that breath (the air we breathe) is not the Holy Spirit. Maybe you mean something else?

I'm trying to decide how much of your unorthodoxy I want to get involved in.

I don't have much taste for wading around in it.

Again, with that introduction of that 'Holy Spirit Life' doctrine, I cannot begin to see where you are coming from.

I will put this way, I don't have to learn your whole ism (there are plenty others who will comply to this, the ism lovers) to understand that your doctrine teaches faith and hope is a lost cause (and so many other things), seeing you are teaching that no matter what you do in life, you will end up where you were predestined to be.

This along has so many implications of causing death and not giving life to those who do believe. The underlying theory behind your doctrine would have God judging Himself since
He is the reason and cause of wickednessso that He could have those He doomed to do wickedly so that they could be judged as wicked.

You haven't reckoned with Ex 4:21, where God told Moses before he ever sent him to Egypt that he would harden Pharoah's heart so that he would not listen.

The main theme of your doctrine is based on the pre-determination of God's salvational plan He had foreordained through Christ. Everyone understands that all the prophecies concerning the Christ in the Old Testament was ordained to happen and they did happen.

Even what was not prophesied happened (e.g., Lk 24:28-31), because it was ordained nevertheless.

Even what did not directly refer to Christ himself was also ordained (e.g., Ac 13:48).

God ordains more than just the life of Christ (Eph 1:4-5).

He works out everything according to his plan in conformity with his purpose and will. (Eph 1:11)

But, you take a leap further and say that even all things are pre-determined.

God's foreknowledge is determinative (Ac 4:28),
and just as he does not have two kinds of omniscience,
one which knows all things, and another which is limited,
so he does not have two kinds of foreknowledge, one that is determinative, and another that is not (Eph 1:11).

I don't have to learn your ism to see where it leads. But, by all means,
wherever you wish the conversation to go, just start talking about it.

I think I will be taking a pass, because I find much of your understanding to be unorthodox, which gives us no real basis for discussion.

But thanks anyway.

 

[Abiding]

Should I ? Should I ?? What the heck ... you can handle it EG ... lol I was just wondering what would happen if us gentiles were not willing either ?

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12




[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Elin]

Great points. There's a great little book on this that our church used as Bible Study called The Will Of God. (by Leslie D. Weatherhead) It covered the Intentional Will of God, the Circumstantial Will of God and the Ultimate Will of God. and explained how He uses man to accomplish His will through these. Very enlightening, easy to understand, cleared up a lot of questions for me and I've used it in discussions with others, both believers and non believers alike.

God has a secret will and a revealed will (Dt 29:29).

I feel another objectional thread coming.

 

[Abiding]

It might be a time for a rethink of what exactly you are trying to accomplish
if your trying to teach, or get high fives.
If your trying to teach be careful of retorts, which slams the door shut on the ears
of the student. Unless you only want to strengthen their own present belief.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Should I ? Should I ?? What the heck ... you can handle it EG ... lol I was just wondering what would happen if us gentiles were not willing either ?

Hey Unclefester! Thats funny I was just thinking of ya a few days ago, wondered where ya went.. Good to see ya bro.

well lets see. If Isreal was not willing, And the gentiles (all others were not willing) I guess we would not be having this discussion would we? We would not even Know who God was. because we would have no one to show us