Kath you may not see where i am.
But since i can see where you are ill ask one of my curious questions.
If God wanted all men to be saved. But in that He wanted all men to be willing.
Why should He force the man, or zap him with willingness, if that ISNT what was in His will?
Therefore their damnation will be also part of His will.
so you have Him damning people because they are not willing, damning them being part of His will.
and i have said some are saved and some are not. the ones not saved are because of unbelief.
and i have said i don't know who will believe and who won't.
i say PreachChrist Crucified...constantly....to everyone.
i've never said the jews are blind and can't hear.
i've never gentiles are blind and can't hear.
i've said some ppl i share the Gospel can not, or will not (and that is exactly how i have worded it - can not or will not) hear.
they are in unbelief. they don't believe.
i have said that i understand man's responsibility.
i said i know men owe God for our sins against Him.
i said i know God loved the world in this way - He gave His Only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish.
Jesus said all the Father gives Him will come to Him and He won't lose any.
i said Jesus made Atonement for sins, and that that payment was sufficient to do exactly that - satisfy God's Justice for sin.
i have said The Atonement will clearly have been of no effect for those who have to go to hell and pay the price for their own sin.
~ is there really a whole lot of difference? honestly Mike?:
Why should He force the man, or zap him with willingness, if that ISNT what was in His will?
Therefore their damnation will be also part of His will.
Kath you may not see where i am.
i think i do, maybe.
But since i can see where you are
can you? are you certain?
If God wanted all men to be saved. But in that He wanted all men to be willing.
Why should He force the man, or zap him with willingness, if that ISNT what was in His will?
Therefore their damnation will be also part of His will.
force? zap? i thought you called it
wooing for your purposes.
the only answer i have for that is that [can all men respond to the wooing by The Holy Spirit] is apparently they don't.
so it's really pointless asking me that, because i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.
Then your side of error would be in error.
By the way....I totally agree. God will have His way and His will and all His good Pleasure, absolutely!! the debate is about what He has revealed to us about just what that is and what it entails.
??
i wasn't willing.
now i am.
and i speak to untold numbers who weren't raised the faith,
who say the same.
they weren't willing.
then suddenly they were.
i didn't believe
and now i do.
can you tell me what happened to
make me willing?
did God force or zap me?
Does a monergist live his life consistantly?
If so im of the opinion they must believe it is God working in them to quarrel
over doctrine, why? well why even question it would have to be the only answer.
If im losing it it must be Gods will since He arbitrarily causes all things.
can you show me where i ever said anything about My God like
"He arbitrarily causes all things" (in the derogatory way you say it)?
because if i have ever said that about Him, or suggested that is part of His Character i want to repent of it.
which definition of
arbitrarily did you mean -
#1?:
ar·bi·trar·y (ärb-trr)
adj.
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference:
or #2?
because, if you want me to play along with this, i'll pick #2 for everything God wants and wills to do (whether i understand it or not):
"Based on or subject to [HIS] individual judgment or preference"
Does a monergist live his life consistantly?
do you live your life consistently?
what part is error Mike?
i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.
I wonder if the OPs "mans moral responsibility" is just a disclaimer. Like a inline fuse.
In case your in pinch.
Ive reread the thread and seen the unanswered(satisfactorily) questions and the futility of taking it seriously.
okay...yesterday you were upset i think, that you thought i wasn't taking your posts seriously.
The debate gets difficult with all the dynamics and different thoughts that come to mind in each post.
if you're not taking it seriously, i can see how that might be true.
Without getting technical theres a great difference between mans freewill (oxymoron)
wait...
why is mans freewill an oxymoron?
you said it is at the core of the (my) error.
If God wanted all men to be saved. But in that He wanted all men to be willing.
so God does something for man to make him willing, even though you said freewill is an oxymoron.
but to be fair you did say:
Without getting technical theres a great difference between mans freewill (oxymoron) and him assenting to the work of the Holyspirit, nature, his conscience and Gods providence.
so i guess i would have like to see the technical part you`re talking about because i dont see you explain it well here (i guess thats the problem i have...you not
getting technical about you are saying:
Im not giving an opinion about just how depraved or not we are because it really doesnt matter. Adam and eve needed a cure immediatly after they sinned. And after they sinned they still heard the voice of God and heard their instructions.
it doesnt matter...why doesnt it.
what part is error Mike?
i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.
does it matter any more or less than this comment i made to Bookends *question mark*
So even tho people make a over abundant issue about depravity, its not that big of an issue. Think about it.
If the man was moral he would still be under sentence. If the man was capable he would still be cut off and under sentence. Im not giving an opinion about just how depraved or not we are because it really doesnt matter. Adam and eve needed a cure immediatly after they sinned. And after they sinned they still heard the voice of God and heard their instructions.
isnt that exactly what i said all along.
that in the end it doesnt matter...people who believe get saved.
people who dont believe dont get saved.
and God is Sovereign.
Hmmm Kath im drinking coffee making conversation in a thread.
Is monergism calvinism?
Also i do believe God is Sovereign over all His creation.
I do believe all things will work out to His good will and pleasure.
Do i believe life is just a product of Gods arbitrary will? Nope!
But that being said, His greater purpose is done.
The things that go against Him He works with in His wisdom.
the
people who do not choose him
and go against Him after he offered salvation i guess you mean..or no.
Thos who think God get all the glory by controlling all things simply rob Him
i believe God controls all things.
Thos who think God get all the glory by controlling all things simply rob Him of the greater Glory in His wisdom.
i believe God controls all things
i believe God is Wise beyond my understanding.
i believe God gets all the Glory for all His Attributes.
some of which...many of which were not the scope of this particular thread (OP).
though they were discussed
i believe God gets all the Glory for everything He does and everything He will do.
and everything He planned from the beginning.
All the Glory.
i would never ever say otherwise.
They also rob people of seeing many other of His glorious attributes. Sure i dont like that.
Theres not a thing in my theology that gives man any glory, but that God created him to be
sheep in His pasture.
who robs people of seeing many of His other Glorious Attributes.
you mean i do *question mark - my keyboard isnt doing punctuation and i would have to restart to fix it*
`They also rob people of seeing many other of His glorious attributes.`
okay....i`ll take your word for it and think about that, for a long time.
maybe you are right.
Kath, do you believe that Abraham, the servant, Isaac was a foreshadow of the trinity
and Rebekah a type of the church?
it has typological overtones.
i studied it a few years back. in depth.
it is not enough to apply to God and say that explains His Own Counsel and Wisdom
in all things.
any more than any other shadow or type or anthropormorphism
is that your proposol...that we base everything God has willed and purposed based on that *question mark*
If youd like me to not communicate with you and take u off my friends list..just sayso.