The Trinity

GreenNnice · Mar 12, 2013

What is the theme of 1 John 2: 18-29, bowguy ? Just a simple question. What is the theme, IF you are to read this exhortation by John, calm call to Christians to not become part of the antichrists, what would you say is ONE WORD that describes the gist of the passage?

And, I think we both know what one word best describes this passage, yet it's not mentioned at all.

_____________
Now, that said, why would God mention the word 'trinity' in Scripture, was it a word that was even part of English language in the 1st century? What do I know about that I don't know (could go to Oxford English dictionary and look at etymology of 'trinity') but I do know the word 'Godhead' does not speak of one but of more than one. And, this is a 'bi' word, at the very least, and, this, therefore, means 'Godhead' could be a 'tri' word. Why not?

When Scripture, like Collossians says , ' He is the visible image of the invisible God,' how do you reckon this verse ?

There is only ONE God , Scripture IS fraught with this truth hammered home. So, when this above verse from Colossians 1:15 is said to someone, there is some real important work to do for one to honestly analyze this truth.

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Tertullian, the first person to use the term 'trinity' in its explicit form, did not do so to emote that they were one 'entity' anyway.

He spoke that they were one in 'essence', which is thereabouts what I am convicted of. Except that my view is that there are only two 'persons', whom are Jesus and God, and the 'spirit of Holiness' is exactly that; the spirit of good-will, charity, compassion, love, hope and faith; The perspective of the true follower, and in fullness, it is the perspective of God.

Tertullian lived around 155-230 AD and he was the first person to advocate the trinitarian ideal explicitly.

Even then, he doesn't give it as much pre-eminence as modern Christians do.

The word itself is never used in the bible, Bowman. And I don't simply adhere to what the masses say, I make my mind up on my own.

Bowman · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Keep running...

Meshullam said:

Just to remove any possible bias....your task is to render this verse according to your world-view.

Please tell us what it says, and defend it...

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

Or...

Admit that you are completely clueless...and more talking out of the glutes is necessary...

GreenNnice · Mar 12, 2013

Meshullam said:

Why divide things? Why not keep it simple, mesh? The 'Godhead' speaks of more than one.
Jesus said He would send us a 'Helper' and this is in caps. Again, we are back to ONE GOD, the word 'Helper' is in caps and sure many can decide to say, 'Oh, the translators didn't know what they were doing,' but, Jesus is very clear that He is not sending just anyone, He is sending a distinct Someone , if you will, to help mankind in their life, give them comfort as Comforter (through their persecution) , be their Advocate (through their FAITH way of preaching Christ and Christ alone), and, just being INSIDE the believer , and, again, He is with us and we are in Him' again, MORE capitalized words, all referencing who? God, Jesus.

And, spirit of Holiness, again, we have what? Caps !

Who else is referenced as Holy , not lowercase 'holy.?' Who? God , Jesus, too, no? They are holy. I think , I know He is adjective 'holy' many times, but I think He is subject 'Holy' too but need to find Scripture on that.

So, here we have a conclusion of who 'God' really is coming to you, full circle

GreenNnice · Mar 12, 2013

I am the LORD, your Holy One, Israel's Creator, your King."

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Keep running...

Bowman said:

You may need to jump through hoops for your coveted little slice of heaven-pie, but I do not. Here, have it.

The passage is from Titus, concerning how we should live our lives presently.

We should await toward what we happily have confidence of, namely the glorious display of the Great God and the Saviour of us, The Messiah Jesus.

Two people heading one display.

It doesn't support your view any more than it supports mine ...

PS · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Keep running...

Bowman said:

Greek grammar mandates that Jesus is both God and Savior in the above verses.

Bowman · Mar 12, 2013

Owned...

Meshullam said:

Google has failed you.

This verse confirms that Jesus is Theos.

Period.

This is based upon the established rules of Greek grammar, alone...and flys in the face of your previous example of attempting to diminish His deity.

GreenNnice · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Keep running...

PS said:

Keep in mind, too, that the Holy Spirit is our saviour too even though that word is nowhere found in Scripture.

We are 'sealed' unto salvation by our faith in Christ. Some

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[SUP]b[/SUP] predestined us for adoption to sonship[SUP]c[/SUP] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9he[SUP]d[/SUP] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11In him we were also chosen,[SUP]e[/SUP] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Keep running...

You've obviously been told this by someone trinitarian, PS.

Greek grammar uses the conjunction 'kai' which can mean a straight 'and', or it can mean 'also', or or 'and the' or 'even', or like the hebrew 'even so, namely'. It means a lot of different things really.

Our word 'and' can be used like this; to mean 'also', amongst other thing.

In it's context is is better translated 'glorious display of the great God and Jesus Christ; (who is) the Messiah.

If you were to take 'kai' to mean 'who is also (the same as') Jesus Christ, The Messiah', then every time two peoples names are mentioned, or two people are mentioned side by side, or even two inanimate objects, that would make them 'the same'.

It is not used as such.

It is a conjunctive word, not a definite article.

In otherwords, it means 'in addition', or 'also' or 'and', not 'the'.

Our Great God AND (in addition) our Saviour, Jesus the Messiah.

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Keep running...

If they were the same, it would be phrased 'Our Great God THE saviour, Jesus The Messiah.

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Henry Alford, a trinitarian greek scholar, amongst others, have proved that the Granville Sharp rule doesn't always HAVE to apply.

English is in a similar respect.

If I say 'God and Saviour, Jesus Christ' It can mean either 'Our God (who is also our) Saviour' or it can mean 'Our God, and our Saviour' (as separate rather than the same).

Bowman · Mar 12, 2013

Meshullam said:

It is most apparent that your googled understanding of the TSKS construction is limited to an outdated and outmoded comprehension of the topic, leaving your position completely without any merit whatsoever, and wanting at all possible levels.

Observe the most recent research into the validity of Granville Sharp’s rule...

Observe these two examples...

Titus 2.13

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

prosdechomenoitēnmakarianelpidakaiepiphaneiantēsdoxēstoumegaloutheoukaisōtēros ēmōnchristouiēsou

Looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1.1

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

simōn petros doulos kai apostolos iēsou christou tois isotimon ēmin lachousin pisten en dikaiosunē tou theou ēmōn kai sōtēros iēsou christou

Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained faith in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Regarding the TSKS construction, Wallace has this to say…

Regarding the above two passages, Wallace has this to say…

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Jesus lacks some knowledge that the Father possesses, in Matthew he says 'But that day, no-one knows, not even the angels of heaven, or the Son, But only the Father'.

he calls God 'father' and himself 'son', and he speaks to God in the third person. God also 'handed him judgement', and he was 'turned from' by God on the cross. He shall 'sit at the right hand' of God.

So it suffices to say that the majority of the language and form used between the two suggests overwhelmingly that Jesus and God are Son, and Father, Savior and Creator, respectively, and separately. It also suggests that Jesus' profession of their singularity was a profession of unity in perspective (or 'spirit'), like Paul and Appollo, rather than a unity of 'physical form' for want of a better term (at least not of that which Goes beyond being created partly from his mother and partly from his father).

Therefore I take any controversial verses (of which trinitarian doctrine are formed) with a pinch of insight, taking into consideration the rest of Jesus and God's interactions.

And the language hasn't proved it wrong to me yet.

In English, I can say of myself and my wife, for instance, that we are 'one'. Paul said it of himself and apollo. Yet we are not physically one, but perhaps one in 'essence' (the term the original trinitarian, Tertullian, used) or of 'one mind'.

If I act as my father acts, and do my fathers will, then I can say to a stranger who has never met my father 'If you see me, you see my dad'.

And if I write a story on a page, I can use language like this;

'And so it will be on the day we return. Our children will say 'look, there comes our great Father, and Mother Emily.'

And if both my father and I carry the spirit of holiness, then I will be in him, and he will be in me.

It isn't hard for me to understand it this way. It makes much more sense.

It makes the spirit of holiness something real, not some metaphysical entity of chance, personified by language. It makes it something that people can have. Something that can be learned under the right conditions. Something that can be taught. Something that is simple. Something that is purely compassion itself. It is the perspective of the person who is good-willed, and patient, and kind.

Something Jesus, God, the apostles, and many other people round the world today have in abundance.

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Are you blind?

that rule says for the 'sharper' rule to apply, the two nouns being conjunctive must be COMMON NOUNS, NOT PROPER NAMES OR ORDINALS.

Jesus and God are both names and ordinals ...

Seems like in your haste you shot yourself in the foot.

The “Sharper” rule is as follows:

In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected via και (thus, article-substantive-και-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals),they have the same referent.”

PS · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Keep running...

GreenNnice said:

Keep in mind, too, that the Holy Spirit is our saviour too even though that word is nowhere found in Scripture.

We are 'sealed' unto salvation by our faith in Christ. Some

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[SUP]b[/SUP] predestined us for adoption to sonship[SUP]c[/SUP] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9he[SUP]d[/SUP] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11In him we were also chosen,[SUP]e[/SUP] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

That is very true, I said about God and Jesus because that is what Tit 2:13 says.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

According to Clark "This clause, literally translated, is as follows: "the appearing of the glory of the great God, even our Savior Jesus Christ."

Bowman · Mar 12, 2013

Meshullam said:

Are you blind?

that rule says for the 'sharper' rule to apply, the two nouns being conjunctive must be COMMON NOUNS, NOT PROPER NAMES OR ORDINALS.

Jesus and God are both names and ordinals ...

Seems like in your haste you shot yourself in the foot.

The “Sharper” rule is as follows:

In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected via και (thus, article-substantive-και-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals),they have the same referent.”

First of all, proper names are not 'ordinals'.

Secondly, Theos is not a proper name, as it occurs in the plural in the NT.

Study up....

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

It's the same in English.

If I say 'I love my Mum and Dad'.

It isn't some new parent called a MumandDad, it means I love both my mum, and my dad ...

If I say that I am waiting for the day of my great toast and bread .. both the toast and bread are great, but they still aren't the same.

The 'glorious display of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

the glorious display is belonging to both the great God, and the saviour.

Both the saviour and the God can be 'great'.

But the God and The Saviour are personified nouns and names, and therefore not 'common nouns'. Therefore this rule doesn't need to apply. Though I suppose it can if you wish it to.

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

Bowman said:

So God isn't one after all?

'there is ONE God, and there is ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN; the man Jesus Christ.

Of course it isn't plural ..

It's 'theou' that's used in Titus, the Masculine, or feminine, singular noun, for 'God'

Meshullam · Mar 12, 2013

What are you talking about?

If either substantive is either a proper name, OR an ordinal (or both), then the rule DOES NOT HAVE TO APPLY.

The Trinity

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