It is my duty to say this. Many times I have posted, and although my feeling and "inner tone" has been quite matter-of-fact, what I have said has been received as harsh or angry. I post this because it is impossible to really know what someone's tone is in printed text, although much of the time perception is correct. Just do not assume tone.
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T
I’ll try to answer your questions with the testimony of Rabbi Isadore Zwern. It’s been 25 years since I read his book so the quotes may not be exact, but it impressed me so and I’ve taught it so many times that I remember it fairly well.
Back in the early 50s Rabbi Zwern was asked by the other West Coast rabbis to head the Zionist movement for the Western states. Rabbi Zwern accepted and told the other rabbis that of course he would have to study the messianic scriptures.
Other rabbis: “oh no, we don’t study those scriptures they are too dangerous.”
Rabbi Zwern: “But how can I be the head of a Zionist movement if I don’t understand the messianic scriptures? Isn’t there a Jewish university somewhere that teaches on the messianic scriptures? Maybe in Israel, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?”
Other rabbis: “Oh no, they are must much too dangerous we never study them.”
Rabbi Zwern: “Well, I will have to study the messianic scriptures on my own; I would feel unqualified to be the head of the Zionist movement if I didn’t.”
So Rabbi Zwern went home and began studying the messianic scriptures. He continued to doing so for over two years and then one Sabbath he stood before the congregation and said, “folks, I have news for you, Yeshua is Messiah!” Then he
began to expound from Torah and the writings that Yeshua was not only in their future, but that He was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial lamb.
Rabbi Zwern did this for two sabbaths in a row, but on the third, the police met them at the door.
Police: “We don’t understand it rabbi, but if you cross that threshold we are going to have to take you off to jail.”
Rabbi Zwern: ”What are you talking about? This is my synagogue, I built it.”
Police: “All we know is we have our orders; you try to go into that synagogue and you’re going to jail.”
So Rabbi Zwern went home, but all dressed up in his rabbinical robes, on Sunday he sat in the back row of the local evangelical church. after the service was over brethren gathered around him:
People: “Are you saved?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “Do you know the four spiritual laws?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “Have you said the sinner’s prayer?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “You’re not saved.”
So Rabbi Zwern left that church and the following Sunday went to another one, where basically the same thing happened to him. The result of all this being, Rabbi Zwern built the first messianic synagogue in Burbank California. I talked to that beloved brother about 20 years ago when he told me, “I have been dedicated to G-d since childhood. I was raised to be a rabbi and have been aware of the presence of the Kodesh Ruach (the Holy Spirit) all my life.
So was Rabbi Zwern worshiping the Asherah or Marduk? Of course not, he worships the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob just like we do, so I would not dare suggest that Rabbi Zwern or the many thousands of Jews like him were lost, because I know the Kodesh Ruach does not dwell in the hearts of those who do not belong to G-d.
Brother, I hope that answers your questions adequately. I don’t know if his book, “The Rabbi From Burbank,” is still in print, but it is well worth the read.
Back in the early 50s Rabbi Zwern was asked by the other West Coast rabbis to head the Zionist movement for the Western states. Rabbi Zwern accepted and told the other rabbis that of course he would have to study the messianic scriptures.
Other rabbis: “oh no, we don’t study those scriptures they are too dangerous.”
Rabbi Zwern: “But how can I be the head of a Zionist movement if I don’t understand the messianic scriptures? Isn’t there a Jewish university somewhere that teaches on the messianic scriptures? Maybe in Israel, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?”
Other rabbis: “Oh no, they are must much too dangerous we never study them.”
Rabbi Zwern: “Well, I will have to study the messianic scriptures on my own; I would feel unqualified to be the head of the Zionist movement if I didn’t.”
So Rabbi Zwern went home and began studying the messianic scriptures. He continued to doing so for over two years and then one Sabbath he stood before the congregation and said, “folks, I have news for you, Yeshua is Messiah!” Then he
began to expound from Torah and the writings that Yeshua was not only in their future, but that He was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial lamb.
Rabbi Zwern did this for two sabbaths in a row, but on the third, the police met them at the door.
Police: “We don’t understand it rabbi, but if you cross that threshold we are going to have to take you off to jail.”
Rabbi Zwern: ”What are you talking about? This is my synagogue, I built it.”
Police: “All we know is we have our orders; you try to go into that synagogue and you’re going to jail.”
So Rabbi Zwern went home, but all dressed up in his rabbinical robes, on Sunday he sat in the back row of the local evangelical church. after the service was over brethren gathered around him:
People: “Are you saved?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “Do you know the four spiritual laws?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “Have you said the sinner’s prayer?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “You’re not saved.”
So Rabbi Zwern left that church and the following Sunday went to another one, where basically the same thing happened to him. The result of all this being, Rabbi Zwern built the first messianic synagogue in Burbank California. I talked to that beloved brother about 20 years ago when he told me, “I have been dedicated to G-d since childhood. I was raised to be a rabbi and have been aware of the presence of the Kodesh Ruach (the Holy Spirit) all my life.
So was Rabbi Zwern worshiping the Asherah or Marduk? Of course not, he worships the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob just like we do, so I would not dare suggest that Rabbi Zwern or the many thousands of Jews like him were lost, because I know the Kodesh Ruach does not dwell in the hearts of those who do not belong to G-d.
Brother, I hope that answers your questions adequately. I don’t know if his book, “The Rabbi From Burbank,” is still in print, but it is well worth the read.
T
I have been a servant of the Lord for many years. In every congregation I have taught there has been three groups. (1) some sit there with their arms crossed and wouldn't believe a word you said if you were levitating 3 foot off the floor and your face glowed like Moses'. (2) another groups sits there, smiling and nodding their heads, but forget every word you said as soon as they're in the parking lot, then (3) there are always a few that take what you're saying to heart and go forth to bear fruit, some 30, some 60, and some a 100 fold.
If you've been this a while, it's. not hard to tell the difference.
If you've been this a while, it's. not hard to tell the difference.
Too many people, and I have been in this category, believe what they have to say is important. It can only be important if it is an understandble representation of the Good News, the Gospel, of Jesus Christ. If it is anything we, ourselves, have devised thinking it intelligent or clever, oft times it just may be overlooked or forgotten. Unless we are directing the light from above, no one will see anything new from what we relate.
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T
Yes, but Rabbi Zwern was aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit 50 years before he knew Yeshua was his Messiah. If we went with present church doctrine, that would mean that Rabbi Zwern was indwelt by the Holy Spirit five decades before he was saved. I don't think very many people get it, salvation does not depend on having the right doctrine, but in having a humble, contrite and repentant heart before God.
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T
I'm not looking for wiggle room, brother. <grin> If a Jew reject Jesus after the Holy Spirit reveals to Him that Jesus is the Messuah, then he is not only lost, but he has committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit has not revealed that truth to the Jew, then Romans 4:15 remains in effect . . .
"for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression."
"for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression."
T
Brother, I have probably started 30 to 40 threads on the forum so what I believe is well documented. If you would please look at the original posts, you will know exactly what I believe, no wiggle room at all. If a Jew reject Jesus after he through the Holy Spirit has come to the knowledge that Jesus is the Messiah, then he is going to hell. I don't know how to state that more clearly.
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I agree with what you have said that the Heart be humble and repentant before God.
By your same example the Holy Spirit drew the Rabbi to the Scriptures...
I witness this too, i was calling for the Saviour before i had read the Bible it was then it came that i should read the Bible Old and New like a Book first page to last and listened.
How i marveled to find things in my heart written in Scriptures i had never came across before...
By your same example the Holy Spirit drew the Rabbi to the Scriptures...
I witness this too, i was calling for the Saviour before i had read the Bible it was then it came that i should read the Bible Old and New like a Book first page to last and listened.
How i marveled to find things in my heart written in Scriptures i had never came across before...
Praise God Almighty for the profession of Rabbi Zwern.
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Ellis:
that is a nice story....but not what you were asked about.
you were asked about jews who reject Jesus without ever acknowledging Him...are THEY saved.
that's what you were asked.
but you managed to avoid it with another emotional anecdote (at least one with some substance in this case)
why not just answer what Still asked?
.................................
so Rabbi Zwern was NOT LOST BEFORE he studied the messianic scriptures (like the other Rabbis who said - OH NO!)?
BEFORE he said Yeshua is the Messiah?
you dare not say that?
many of the The Pharisees knew and know there is a messiah spoken of.
what did Jesus say to them? - "UNLESS YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS"
..............................
was Rabbi Zwern saved before he studied the messianic scriptures, before he said Yeshua is the Messiah?
because he was familiar with Kodesh Ruach?
..............................
what about these other Old Testament Wine Skins? - they are also familiar with Kodesh Ruach.
Other rabbis: “oh no, we don’t study those scriptures they are too dangerous.”
Rabbi Zwern: “But how can I be the head of a Zionist movement if I don’t understand the messianic scriptures? Isn’t there a Jewish university somewhere that teaches on the messianic scriptures? Maybe in Israel, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?”
Other rabbis: “Oh no, they are must much too dangerous we never study them.”
Rabbi Zwern: “Well, I will have to study the messianic scriptures on my own; I would feel unqualified to be the head of the Zionist movement if I didn’t.”
according to everything else you have posted, God has preserved these "Other Rabbis", as One of Two Witnesses.
they are saved anyway.
RIGHT?
Ellis, don't answer about a jew who confesses, believes in Jesus Christ of Nazareth....answer the question about the salvation (new soteriology) of the OLD SKINS WHO DO NOT.
that's what you are carefully avoiding concerning 1Still's questions.
Other rabbis: “oh no, we don’t study those scriptures they are too dangerous.”
Rabbi Zwern: “But how can I be the head of a Zionist movement if I don’t understand the messianic scriptures? Isn’t there a Jewish university somewhere that teaches on the messianic scriptures? Maybe in Israel, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?”
Other rabbis: “Oh no, they are must much too dangerous we never study them.”
Rabbi Zwern: “Well, I will have to study the messianic scriptures on my own; I would feel unqualified to be the head of the Zionist movement if I didn’t.”
are these "Other Rabbis" Old Testament Wine Skins - saved anyway?
just yes or no.
..........................................
and are these "Other Rabbis" our Brothers we ought to stand shoulder to shoulder with?
also, tell me why a Muslim is not afforded the same hope due to familiarity with the Pentateuch.
or anyone else who has read the Pentateuch.
is it that they are they NOT saved through Moses because they are not Jewish?
what about Khazarian Jews (and other late converts) who themselves admit they converted to Talmudic Judaism (not Moses and the Prophets) 600 years AFTER the Old Covenant was closed up BY GOD.
do those jews have a place among the Romans 9 blinded elect you described?
if so...why?
if not...why not?
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Other rabbis: “oh no, we don’t study those scriptures they are too dangerous.”
Rabbi Zwern: “But how can I be the head of a Zionist movement if I don’t understand the messianic scriptures? Isn’t there a Jewish university somewhere that teaches on the messianic scriptures? Maybe in Israel, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?”
Other rabbis: “Oh no, they are must much too dangerous we never study them.”
Rabbi Zwern: “Well, I will have to study the messianic scriptures on my own; I would feel unqualified to be the head of the Zionist movement if I didn’t.”
so ALL of the Rabbis above belong to One of Two Olive Trees, One of the Two Witnesses of God - The Jewish People.
ALL Saved.
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Rabbi Zwern reads, and understands and professes that Jesus of Nazareth is THE MESSIAH.....
is it your assumption God transferred Rabbi Zwern to the Other Olive Tree, the Other Witness - The Church
or did he remain in the Jewish Olive Tree with unbelieving Jews whom God had Blinded.
please explain how that works.
Rabbi Zwern: “But how can I be the head of a Zionist movement if I don’t understand the messianic scriptures? Isn’t there a Jewish university somewhere that teaches on the messianic scriptures? Maybe in Israel, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?”
Other rabbis: “Oh no, they are must much too dangerous we never study them.”
Rabbi Zwern: “Well, I will have to study the messianic scriptures on my own; I would feel unqualified to be the head of the Zionist movement if I didn’t.”
so ALL of the Rabbis above belong to One of Two Olive Trees, One of the Two Witnesses of God - The Jewish People.
ALL Saved.
.....................
Rabbi Zwern reads, and understands and professes that Jesus of Nazareth is THE MESSIAH.....
is it your assumption God transferred Rabbi Zwern to the Other Olive Tree, the Other Witness - The Church
or did he remain in the Jewish Olive Tree with unbelieving Jews whom God had Blinded.
please explain how that works.