Daniel is out of chronological order.

[Ralphthemonk]

Not Sure if this helps, BUT: Daniel does have two languages in the "original", but is now one language for us to study, having all been translated during the time of Ptolemy of Egypt about the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and Johnathan Maccabees: that would be the version from which Jesus read.
As you read through Daniel there will be a chapter showing God's unending mercy and grace, and then one showing a prophetic view of world/Judaic events that will come to pass. The prophecies cover everything from the beginning of gentile rule of the world in the form of empires to the last days of gentile rule, and even beyond. (The Jews have not been ruled by Jews until their recent renewed regathering. (The nature of their rule is not the theocratic state as formerly, but is a reflection of gentile rule. The re-establishment of a temple with sacrifice for sin will be an abomination to God, slapping Christ with their rejection once again: but things are now changed and Daniel shows a very different outcome when taken into context with the Revelation.)

 

[zone]

Not Sure if this helps, BUT: Daniel does have two languages in the "original", but is now one language for us to study, having all been translated during the time of Ptolemy of Egypt about the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and Johnathan Maccabees: that would be the version from which Jesus read.

As you read through Daniel there will be a chapter showing God's unending mercy and grace, and then one showing a prophetic view of world/Judaic events that will come to pass. The prophecies cover everything from the beginning of gentile rule of the world in the form of empires to the last days of gentile rule, and even beyond. (The Jews have not been ruled by Jews until their recent renewed regathering. (The nature of their rule is not the theocratic state as formerly, but is a reflection of gentile rule. The re-establishment of a temple with sacrifice for sin will be an abomination to God, slapping Christ with their rejection once again: but things are now changed and Daniel shows a very different outcome when taken into context with the Revelation.)

good post.

except "The Jews have not been ruled by Jews until their recent renewed regathering."

what does jews being ruled by jews have to do with anything?

the whole point is their rejection of God Himself (Christ) as their King. just as He said when they first asked for kings.

not being ruled by the God of Heaven as King - Christ!

it always has been the issue.

not sure what you are saying. are Israelis in Palestine evidence of salvation?

the "last days" of gentile rule in Daniel 4 is when the Stone (Christ) struck the toes of the Image in Daniel.
that's when Gentile rule ended - for those who would have Christ as King.
not for those who won't - they said - we have no king but Caesar.
what's changed?

 

[Ralphthemonk]

Hello: am new to this forum. Thanks for your taking time to read the post.
The rule of Jerusalem, Israel and the whole world is dealt with in Daniel's prophecy. As described by Daniel, what happens in the gentile world does not stay in the gentile world, but directly affects Jerusalem and the whole nation of Israel. Even though the kings of Judah were not following God's will when making their decisions, God oversaw the well-being of the Jews until their turning away from Him to idols. This theme is major thru out the whole Bible: ie, Good relationship with God=blessings; bad relationship with God=curses or just withdrawal of God's blessings. (relative to each individual also).
God's jealousy of Jerusalem and the land of Israel are important factors in the well-being of Jerusalem: it is the acceptance of anti-Christ and the further rejection of Christ that will bring on the "wrath of the Lamb", eg, the wrath of God. Gentile rule will be smashed by the coming of Christ. Christ will rule with an "iron rod", not the gentle staff of the Shepherd. Those in rebellion after Christ's return will be brought to Jerusalem in chains to stand trial for their crimes against fellow men and Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

Shameful statement Therapon, i have no comrades. Seems to me your doing to me what you dont like.

Nah uh i consider u a compadre which is y i found the comment offensive...love u abiding.

 

[Ralphthemonk]

Daniel/Revelation is difficult to understand; it is impossible to understand if not taken into context of the whole Bible and all of the prophecies thereof.
Each economy of God, as from the days prior to Moses, then under the Law, and then under grace (today), is a progression towards the goal of seating Christ on the throne. But even this goal is subject to the final outcome of placing heaven here on earth, and having the population come to the fulfillment of "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
This cannot be the age of the kingdom on earth, because the nature of the kingdom does not fit with Bible revelation about the kingdom. (true in the world as well as the heart of individuals).

 

[Ralphthemonk]

Concerning
"the "last days" of gentile rule in Daniel 4 is when the Stone (Christ) struck the toes of the Image in Daniel.
that's when Gentile rule ended - for those who would have Christ as King.
not for those who won't - they said - we have no king but Caesar.
what's changed?"

The stone smashing the kingdoms is as well finished as our own salvation. But we are told in Hebrews 1 & 2 that we see, "yet not all things put under Him", and that includes the rebellious peoples of earth, Jerusalem and those spiritual being as yet in rebellion. We know there are still demons afoot from the writings of Paul. (Not to mention some of the Church members like those rejecting the Rabbi on grounds he did not dance to their pipes.)

 

[JaumeJ]

Just a reminder.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

[Ralphthemonk]

According to the prophecies, this is the "time of the end." but is not the "end of time." which are two separate distinctions. And as predicted for the time of the end, knowledge shall be increased.

 

[1still_waters]

I’ll try to answer your questions with the testimony of Rabbi Isadore Zwern. It’s been 25 years since I read his book so the quotes may not be exact, but it impressed me so and I’ve taught it so many times that I remember it fairly well.

Back in the early 50s Rabbi Zwern was asked by the other West Coast rabbis to head the Zionist movement for the Western states. Rabbi Zwern accepted and told the other rabbis that of course he would have to study the messianic scriptures.

Other rabbis: “oh no, we don’t study those scriptures they are too dangerous.”
Rabbi Zwern: “But how can I be the head of a Zionist movement if I don’t understand the messianic scriptures? Isn’t there a Jewish university somewhere that teaches on the messianic scriptures? Maybe in Israel, Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?”
Other rabbis: “Oh no, they are must much too dangerous we never study them.”
Rabbi Zwern: “Well, I will have to study the messianic scriptures on my own; I would feel unqualified to be the head of the Zionist movement if I didn’t.”

So Rabbi Zwern went home and began studying the messianic scriptures. He continued to doing so for over two years and then one Sabbath he stood before the congregation and said, “folks, I have news for you, Yeshua is Messiah!” Then he
began to expound from Torah and the writings that Yeshua was not only in their future, but that He was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial lamb.

Rabbi Zwern did this for two sabbaths in a row, but on the third, the police met them at the door.

Police: “We don’t understand it rabbi, but if you cross that threshold we are going to have to take you off to jail.”
Rabbi Zwern: ”What are you talking about? This is my synagogue, I built it.”
Police: “All we know is we have our orders; you try to go into that synagogue and you’re going to jail.”

So Rabbi Zwern went home, but all dressed up in his rabbinical robes, on Sunday he sat in the back row of the local evangelical church. after the service was over brethren gathered around him:

People: “Are you saved?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “Do you know the four spiritual laws?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “Have you said the sinner’s prayer?”
Rabbi Zwern: “Yeshua is Messiah.”
People: “You’re not saved.”

So Rabbi Zwern left that church and the following Sunday went to another one, where basically the same thing happened to him. The result of all this being, Rabbi Zwern built the first messianic synagogue in Burbank California. I talked to that beloved brother about 20 years ago when he told me, “I have been dedicated to G-d since childhood. I was raised to be a rabbi and have been aware of the presence of the Kodesh Ruach (the Holy Spirit) all my life.

So was Rabbi Zwern worshiping the Asherah or Marduk? Of course not, he worships the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob just like we do, so I would not dare suggest that Rabbi Zwern or the many thousands of Jews like him were lost, because I know the Kodesh Ruach does not dwell in the hearts of those who do not belong to G-d.

Brother, I hope that answers your questions adequately. I don’t know if his book, “The Rabbi From Burbank,” is still in print, but it is well worth the read.

I'm confused

can you be more direct?


hold the rabbi story...and go a lil heavy on the yes or nos.


Please answer each.


1.Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?
2.Are unbelieving Jews saved?
3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?

 

[Ariel82]

if a Jew has been quickened by the Holy Spirit to the fact that Yeshua is their Messiah, and they reject the Spirit's irrefutable witness, then they are not only lost, but they have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you wonder why I phrase it exactly that way, read Mark3:28-29 . . .

"Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

see copy on that. I agree that if a Jew doesn't accept Jesus after the Holy Spirit reveals it to them than they are guilty. however, I don't agree with the following....

You want to talk about some scary, that's got to be it, but if a blinded Jew has not rejected the witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, then he has not committed that sin. God is looking at the heart, not the doctrine. If salvation depended on having perfect doctrine then none of us are going to heaven because only God understands His word perfectly.

You believe there are blind Jews that the Holy SPirit does not reach out and call to acceptance of Jesus and those are saved even through they do not accept Jesus as Messiah?

 

[zone]

Yes, but Rabbi Zwern was aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit 50 years before he knew Yeshua was his Messiah. If we went with present church doctrine, that would mean that Rabbi Zwern was indwelt by the Holy Spirit five decades before he was saved. I don't think very many people get it, salvation does not depend on having the right doctrine, but in having a humble, contrite and repentant heart before God.

what did you add indwelt for?
huh?

is the lost junkie on the corner being convicted of his sin and hearing the gospel indwelt 50 years BEFORE he is saved?

in order for the Rabbi to know Yeshua, he had to read the New Testament.
presumably he obeyed the gospel, as Peter instructed (and presumably no one calls him Rabbi as that is forbidden for Christians).

or does your NEW soteriology include a complete reworking of The Gospel even for jews who DO accept Jesus?

Acts 2
36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

^ PETER'S MESSAGE TO JEWS ^

did the rabbi obey the gospel like every other person who gets saved?
or is there always an exception in your false doctrine heresy world Ellis?

 

[1still_waters]

Ok so

In one corner...we have a Lutheran who believes in infant baptism and that the Holy Spirit works to save them before they can comprehend what's going on....Who is opposed to a Jew havin an working of the Spirit in their life before they comprehend the Gospel.


In the other corner we have a guy who is probably against Calvinism, and he's teaching that God chose some Jew and was working in him 50 years before he believed the Gospel.


Color me tickled by the irony.

 

[zone]

Ok so

In one corner...we have a Lutheran who believes in infant baptism and that the Holy Spirit works to save them before they can comprehend what's going on....Who is opposed to a Jew havin an working of the Spirit in their life before they comprehend the Gospel.


In the other corner we have a guy who is probably against Calvinism, and he's teaching that God chose some Jew and was working in him 50 years before he believed the Gospel.


Color me tickled by the irony.

tsk....

the Lutheran who believes in infant baptism and that the Holy Spirit works to save them before they can comprehend what's going on is not opposed to a Jew havin an working of the Spirit in their life before they comprehend the New Covenant (family) Gospel.

the Lutheran is not opposed to anyone havin a workin of the Spirit in their life.

either before they comprehend the Gospel or after.

the Lutheran is fairly certain everyone needs to believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, including the Lutheran baby who grows up to be 5 and understands and agrees with the Gospel of Christ The Redeemer, born in Bethlehem, King of Israel.

a little uncertain about an unbeliever being indwelt by the Holy Spirit for 50 years of rejecting and denying.

the Lutheran is really only wondering why G-d, Who already has an Olive Tree of Unbelieving Old Testament Wineskin Jews Witness, would change His plan and grow a Saved Christian Jew in amongst the branches of His Unbelieving Tree Witness after he specifically planned NOT to do that.........or in Disney Scenario #2, why He would cut the Believing Christian Jew Witness out from the Old Wineskin Olive Tree Witness and transfer it to the other Olive Tree Witness, The Christian Era (Gentile & some Jew) Church.

uh....help?

 

[1still_waters]

tsk....

the Lutheran who believes in infant baptism and that the Holy Spirit works to save them before they can comprehend what's going on is not opposed to a Jew havin an working of the Spirit in their life before they comprehend the Gospel.

the Lutheran is not opposed to anyone havin a workin of the Spirit in their life.

either before they comprehend the Gospel or after.

the Lutheran is fairly certain everyone needs to believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, including the Lurtheran baby who grows up to be 5 and understands and agrees with the Gospel of Christ The Redeemer, born in Bethlehem, King of Israel.

the Lutheran is only wondering why G-d, Who already has an Olive Tree of Unbelieving Old Testament Wineskin Jews Witness, would change His plan and grow a Saved Christian Jew in amongst the branches of His Unbelieving Tree Witness after he specifically planned NOT to do that.........or in Disney Scenario #2, why He would cut the Believing Christian Jew Witness out from the Old Wineskin Olive Tree Witness and transfer it to the other Olive Tree Witness, The Christian Era (Gentile & some Jew) Church.

uh....help?

Lol I was wonderin what kinda reply I'd get back from you.
Did I get your dander up a wee lil bit? HUH HUH? DID I????

 

[zone]

Lol I was wonderin what kinda reply I'd get back from you.
Did I get your dander up a wee lil bit? HUH HUH? DID I????

LOL....wha? not.
it's funny.
it's all so bizarre and non Biblical, i do laugh at it.
too bad it's so serious though.

nope Stillman.....y'all actually helped highlight the absurdity of it all
more of that would be good.

plus i use Aveena, and don't have much dander.
workin on it.

meow.

 

[zone]

Lol I was wonderin what kinda reply I'd get back from you.
Did I get your dander up a wee lil bit? HUH HUH? DID I????

however Still...

things could change at any moment

 

[zone]

if a blinded Jew has not rejected the witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, then he has not committed that sin. God is looking at the heart, not the doctrine. If salvation depended on having perfect doctrine then none of us are going to heaven because only God understands His word perfectly.

what?

- blinded jew
- has not rejected the Holy Spirit witness
- that Jesus is the Christ

has he accepted and embraced that witness?

he is not blinded then, he is saved...correct?

.....................................................

what about the blinded jews who reject the witness of the Spirit that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ?

ARE....THEY....SAVED?

yes or no?

 

[1still_waters]

however Still...

things could change at any moment

Uh oh. I'm messin wif a postal worker?:O

 

[SarahM777]

Uh oh. I'm messin wif a postal worker?:O

You mean someone else also worked for the PO? WOO HOO

 

[psychomom]

You mean someone else also worked for the PO? WOO HOO

yeah, but PSYCHOmom taught 'em everything they know.