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1
I am not trying to obfuscate, brother, I could honestly answer NO to all three questions as they are written, but you want to know what I actually believe and that can’t be said in 25 words or less. We certainly agree on one foundational truth, that there is no salvation outside of the Cross of the Lord Jesus.
1. Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?
A Jew cannot reject what he has been sovereignly prevented from seeing, Romans 11:8 states: “according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.” That is what I was trying to get across through Rabbi Isadore Zwern’s testimony. I spoke with that beloved brother about 20 years ago and he told me, “I have been dedicated to G-d since childhood. I was raised to be a rabbi and have been aware of the presence of the Kodesh Ruach (the Holy Spirit) all my life.” Now the Holy Spirit does not indwell the hearts of those who do not belong to G-d, so unless Rabbi Zwern was lying through his teeth, I had to conclude that it was possible for Jews during the Christian era to be saved without recognizing Yeshua as Messiah. I now have a host of Biblical and anecdotal evidence to support that conclusion.
2. Are unbelieving Jews saved?
Of course not, but neither Jew or Gentile is saved by the amount of doctrinal head knowledge he has. As the Lord said to Samuel, “man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh upon the heart.” Then to Micah, “what is required of a man, but to do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with his God.” My doctrine used to be so orthodox that you could have buried me with a post-hole digger, but then, reality hit me in the face like a sledgehammer. Over in the holy land is a little country called Israel, established in 1948, Jerusalem freed of Gentile domination in 1967. Those two events fulfill more Bible prophecy than anything else that’s happened since the Cross. Today, thousands of Jews go to the Wailing Wall with prayer shawls and yarmulkes on, imploring G-d to send Messiah quickly to save Israel. And who might their Messiah be? The same wonderful Lord Jesus you and I serve.
3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?
It is impossible for a Jew to reject what he has been sovereignly prevented from seeing! But we then have to ask, why did our heavenly Father blind His chosen people to the Gospel? Because God honors his own word! To whit: “Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall everything be established.” According to Revelation in 11:3- 4, the two witnesses are “two olive trees and two candlesticks that stand before the God of the earth.” From Revelation 1:20, candlesticks are churches, ergo: the two witnesses are two groups of “called out ones” that witness to the glory and majesty of sovereign God during the Christian era. Then Romans 11:24-25, 11:28-29 show the two olive trees to be the Jewish people and the Gentile church. If God had not kept His chosen people separate from the Gentiles, the Jews would have been absorbed into the church and they would have ceased to exist as a separate entity. Unbelievably important because without two witnesses, all the Bible prophecies about the restoration of Israel to the land could never have been fulfilled.[/QUOTE]
Thanks....
WELCOME TO THE GREAT APOSTASY
Dual Covenant Heresy everywhere.
exactly according to plan.
Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire
Dual Covenant Heresy everywhere.
exactly according to plan.
Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire
T
Oh yes it is. I have always hated debating Scripture because the results are always a downer for someone. I'm supposed to love my brother, not argue with him. I sometimes look back at what I've posted, appalled that I have allowed myself to be drawn into one disagreement or another.I also like to look at the possibility that my brother is right, rather than assuming I'm right and he is always wrong.
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A
According to the bible from start to finish all who seek God with their whole heart will find Him.
Those who seek the Father will be drawn to the Son by the Father. Thats how it works.
A read through Isaiah will prove what it means to be blinded hardened slumber etc.
You cant just take a verse or two out of the bible thats built on what Isaiah prophecied
and build some new doctrine. Theres just no such thing as a true Jew from the heart
that believes in God that wont be drawn to Christ.
And theres no such thing as a jew that plays religion that will not be blinded, hardened, slumber
any more than any gentile would be.
Those who seek the Father will be drawn to the Son by the Father. Thats how it works.
A read through Isaiah will prove what it means to be blinded hardened slumber etc.
You cant just take a verse or two out of the bible thats built on what Isaiah prophecied
and build some new doctrine. Theres just no such thing as a true Jew from the heart
that believes in God that wont be drawn to Christ.
And theres no such thing as a jew that plays religion that will not be blinded, hardened, slumber
any more than any gentile would be.
1
Yes this statement from him is very concerning to me.
link to it-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...el-out-chronological-order-13.html#post962441
link to it-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...el-out-chronological-order-13.html#post962441
i suppose it comes down to this:
John 10
I Am the Good Shepherd
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
7So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
19There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
I and the Father Are One
22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.
40He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained. 41And many came to him. And they said, “John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true.” 42And many believed in him there.
~
i know my Shepherd's Voice.
i will not follow any others.
we all decide i guess.
*shrug*
it's quite something to see all this going down, tho.
oh well.....ttyl still.
John 10
I Am the Good Shepherd
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
7So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
19There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
I and the Father Are One
22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.
40He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained. 41And many came to him. And they said, “John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true.” 42And many believed in him there.
~
i know my Shepherd's Voice.
i will not follow any others.
we all decide i guess.
*shrug*
it's quite something to see all this going down, tho.
oh well.....ttyl still.
E
Wow, I have missed alot in two days. Been busy, I see even Stilly has got into the discussion..Anyway I will not answer everything from here out. just make my points about what we have been waiting for. Which is therepon's so called chillism or whatever ya call it.
Point 1 - There are actually 5 gentile empires. the last one (rome) is split into 2 different empires.
Point 2 - Here we go again. What is with people symbolising scripture and prophesy? Why can't we just take things literally. Thisngs like this distort Gods word. There IS NOTHING in the passage which would show what happened to daniel, his friends and the king was intended to represent judgment, the tribulation or anything.
Talk about adding to Gods word. It is sad that people have to resort to this kind of stuff. It makes those who believe like I do have to fight this nonsense so people understand what we believe..
needless to say, I disagree with this in a hard way. No scriptural support whatsoever. What happened to daniel, the king and his friends were just showing Gods love for them, and his protection even in the time of trouble for his children, when he has a plan to do.. All those things did was give Daniel credability of being Gods child so God could keep him in the position he held to do his will. There is no need to try to take these and say they deel with future events.
Point 1 - There are actually 5 gentile empires. the last one (rome) is split into 2 different empires.
Point 2 - Here we go again. What is with people symbolising scripture and prophesy? Why can't we just take things literally. Thisngs like this distort Gods word. There IS NOTHING in the passage which would show what happened to daniel, his friends and the king was intended to represent judgment, the tribulation or anything.
Talk about adding to Gods word. It is sad that people have to resort to this kind of stuff. It makes those who believe like I do have to fight this nonsense so people understand what we believe..
needless to say, I disagree with this in a hard way. No scriptural support whatsoever. What happened to daniel, the king and his friends were just showing Gods love for them, and his protection even in the time of trouble for his children, when he has a plan to do.. All those things did was give Daniel credability of being Gods child so God could keep him in the position he held to do his will. There is no need to try to take these and say they deel with future events.
E
I have to disagree, they were not praying to Jesus, they were praying for a messaih who would never ocme, because he alreaqdy came.
Jesus is NOT coming back to die again for his own people. he died once for them already, they blinded themselves in unbelief. And are still blind because they still think they get right to God by Law. and thus have rejected Grace.
Jesus is NOT coming back to die again for his own people. he died once for them already, they blinded themselves in unbelief. And are still blind because they still think they get right to God by Law. and thus have rejected Grace.
E
all people of the OT were saved we are. faith that God was going to take care of their sin as promised first in gen 3: 15. Due to the mystery of God. they di dnot know the messaih would even take sin.. but they had to have faith that God would send a redeemer, it was promised all through the OT. David understood this "sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire"
As for NT jews. Once Christ came, there was no excuse for rejectin him, the mystery had been revealed. the payment was complete. Jesus said "it is finished" there is no ,more sacrifice for sin (of course according to hebrews, no OT sacrifice of the law EVER removed sin..
E
God is not hiding the gospel from anyone. ANyone is able to see. It is there unbeliev and hardness of their heart by which they are blinded. God just strengthens their unbelief by showing them truth, so as scripture says, Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear. Rom 1 and 4 make it clear, no man has an excuse. because they know the truth, but hide it in unbelief and ignorance (willfull) of their mind.
Jerusalem is not free of Gentile domination, if it was, there would be a temple there, not a dome of the rock. My neighbor is a palestinian who came from Jerusalem, Jerusalem is actually spread in three section. Christian, Islam and Jew.
