Modern Dreams/Visions/Prophecy/Revelation Movement Over Complicates Everything (IMO)

[crossnote]

Personally, I find nothing in Scripture which tells me that dreams and visions from God have ceased. It's true the Scriptures are complete and are the plumb line by which we test the spirits but it doesn't necessarily follow that dreams and visions have ceased. Also it's true that they have nothing new to add to Scripture but what is one to do with a dream or vision that points one to Jesus? Ascribe it to the devil? An indigested piece of beef (Scrooge)? Without a clear word from Scripture saying D&Vs have ceased I choose God as the source unless they contradict the clear Word of Scripture.

 

[roaringout]

I had a vision, well then I'll post it! It came from a scientific graphic called '' the Shane and Wirtanen galactic map''. It represent the position of 1 million galaxies in our universe. You can see those images on the web site of professor Groth of the university of Princeton *([email protected] ). Here are some drawing that enhance some of the things that I see in it.

 

[crossnote]

A good example of a vision NOT pointing one to Jesus.

 

[1still_waters]

I still contend the movement overcomplicates everything.

Reading the Bible and getting the truth from that is a whole lot less complicated than searching for a vision, getting a vision, mulling over the contents of said vision, then concluding its telling you what you coulda already read in the Bible.

It IS a long, unnecessary, over complicated process.

 

[JaumeJ]

Copying the second image from the top and enlarging it in one of my graphic programs it shows the pixels of the background of the image of the supposed face of Christ are smaller than the pixels in the image of the face.

I had a vision, well then I'll post it! It came from a scientific graphic called '' the Shane and Wirtanen galactic map''. It represent the position of 1 million galaxies in our universe. You can see those images on the web site of professor Groth of the university of Princeton *([email protected] ). Here are some drawing that enhance some of the things that I see in it. View attachment 43245 View attachment 43246 View attachment 43247 View attachment 43248

 

[HEIsRiSen]

You do believe new scripture and new revelation have ceased don't you?

Yes I do.

While I do believe this, I do not believe that dreams, visions and gifts of the spirit have ceased.... although I do believe that they are much more scarce than what they once were. I believe that God has shown me things in dreams that helped me tremendously, things that I would have never seen on my own. My dreams have always been personal and are usually to show me something that I am not seeing in my life that may be hindering me or could in the future. I have had dreams that have helped steer me away from unnecessary struggles and heartaches, even helped me to make important decisions. I've even had the same dream two nights in a row because I didn't take the hint the first time around. I rarely need to interpret these dreams because they are usually straight forward.

Like another poster said, there is nothing in scripture that suggests that people do not still have dreams and visions from God, but these are not to add to the completed Word or revelation contained in the Bible or disagree with it. I didn't believe that God sent dreams to people until I had one myself, it almost seems to me that those who are denying it deny because they have not experienced it. Some of these people may not even remember their dreams at all, let alone think any of their dreams have been God inspired. God is not limited in how He speaks to us, just because we have the entire Word of God doesn't mean that God does not communicate with people on a personal level if they are open to hearing Him.

This isn't just my opinion, this is my experience.

 

[1still_waters]

God is not limited in how He speaks to us, just because we have the entire Word of God doesn't mean that God does not communicate with people on a personal level if they are open to hearing Him.

This isn't just my opinion, this is my experience.

Ok, this seems like a sincere from the heart answer from you.
I have a couple issues though.

God is not limited in how He speaks to us,

Statements like these get tossed around so easily.
But here's the thing.
Even you "limit" how God can speak to you.
You've totally written out the possibility of him speaking to you through new inspired scripture.
I don't think it's fair to say someone is "limiting" God when they say they believe all this stuff was for a time and season. It's not more limiting God, than you limiting Him by saying there is no more new scripture.

just because we have the entire Word of God doesn't mean that God does not communicate with people on a personal level if they are open to hearing Him.

Statements like these get spoken often too.
Why is God's word somehow more impersonal?
How is reading his words impersonal?

This may be the crux of the whole over complicated dreams/vision movement.
It doesn't view the word of God as adequate and personal enough.
As if his living, breathing active word isn't personal?!?
Really?

Since his word is held in this low regard.
Although indirectly, and not with purposeful intent.
Since his word is held in this low regard, people then go searching for something that seems "personal". And right there is where they end up overcomplicating everything.

 

[JaumeJ]

Not only does our Father speak to individuals, but He also works miracles through His servants to this very day. He always will, for He does not change. You may change, perhaps your mind, but He does not.

 

[cookie39]

okay, let me see if I am understanding your question/ Are you asking if people are seeking future events for the WHOLE WORLD, in their visions and dreams/prophecies? or are you saying that God do not do it for any reason no matter what?

If it is the first part, I too will agree with you for the Word of God was completed at the end of the Book of Revelations......

But if you are saying the second part I totally disagree..... why? Because some dreams and vision God gives us are warnings for something that is not written in the Bible, yet will be still based on the Bible....

let me give you an example: this is true..... I was driving home one day from work, and the Lord showed me a vision of my sister's two sons playing with fire, standing in one of her bedrooms by the window... and the next thing the room was engulfed in flames and they were trapped..... So I called my sister and told her what God had just showed me in a vision... she cursed me out and hung up on me accusing me of trying to scare her into during right.... so I called my mom and we PRAYED!!! Less than a month later my sister called me crying and saying thank you and praising God.... as she was never home with her children, one day she decided to stay home, she said she woke up out her sleep running to that room as if something was carrying her there and when she opened the door her two sons where standing in the window burning paper and burning paper was blowing back into the room which had several bags of laundry..... She was in church that next sunday praising God to all for what he did by letting us know ahead of time to pray for their safety..... And God has done this so many times that I could not count.... even in a dream he allowed me to see the death of a very dear friend, so I would know he gave him the chance to be saved before he died in a tragic car accident......

See all of the dreams, visions, and prophecies are not to tell what is to come for the WHOLE WORLD, God himself had done that.... but for each individual the Bible do not tell us what the devil is going to do, or what trial or tribulation God is bringing.......... even those who are young in their walk with the Lord they have not yet to get to know God in such a way that they KNOW HIS VOICE, so God has made ways for us to be used as vessels of His Spirit to communicate what it is He is asking us to do or seek for in any given time of our relationship with the Lord God.

 

[1still_waters]

Not only does our Father speak to individuals, but He also works miracles through His servants to this very day. He always will, for He does not change. You may change, perhaps your mind, but He does not.

You don't believe God is still writing new scripture.
Well don't you believe Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever?
Don't you believe God doesn't change?
Well if he wrote scripture in the past, he does now too!
I mean he doesn't change, right?

Tossing the verses about God not changing, and God being the same, at people who believe certain things were for a time and season, well it's just not a valid thing. Especially considering the fact even you think God has quit doing certain things, like writing new scripture.

If someone accused you of saying God has changed, and isn't the same, because you believe he no longer writes scripture, I'd say such a person tossing that accusation around is really misapplying said verses.

 

[zone]

No. Those who deny them
Today disagree because it doesn't agree with the bible.

lol.....eschatology has something to do with it?
that's kinda out there

dreams and visions per scripture were for a reason, were either interpreted by God Himself; an angel; or a prophet.
for a purpose.
and recorded for our learning.

humans dream.
christians dream.
God may speak in dreams.
He may relate to someone in a vision.

this has nothing at all to do with His revealed History Will and Plan as recorded.
there is no new revelation concerning God's Plan.
God's Plan will not be reliant upon anyone's dream.

dreams are subjective, and the foundational gift of interpetation has nothing to do with today.
no one can interpret another person's dream - this is occult (and playing with fire).

and this view (cessationism) has nothing to do with eschatology (the study of last things).

it is continuationists who have misunderstood Pentecost (fulfilled).

 

[cookie39]

The Lord will use dreams, visions, and prophecy... to help us our walk with him.... so may think the Lord want them to pastor a church, when he may be telling them to just have a Bible study in their house.... We cannot always understand what God is telling us, no matter how long we have been reading the Word............ BUT I AGREE WITH YOU 100% the more we are in the Presence of God by the reading of His Word we will become more in tuned with His voice and nothing he will show us or tell us will be contrary to His Word..... even now I ask God something and when he answer me it is with His Word, yet He also show me visual images of what He is telling me and how I can do it, and why........ most of the time when I am telling someone something God did for me I would say...... God showed me this, or God showed me that..... It is still being used and it is so not more complicated: but it is so much a helpful tool that God has chose to use to further His kingdom and those who are entering in. Praise be to God for giving us all the help we need.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I have a question. People who support the charismatic gifts and wonders say "God doesn't change". It's true. He doesn't.

So gifts and wonders ceasing means God has changed?

 

[zone]

While I do believe this, I do not believe that dreams, visions and gifts of the spirit have ceased.... although I do believe that they are much more scarce than what they once were. I believe that God has shown me things in dreams that helped me tremendously, things that I would have never seen on my own. My dreams have always been personal and are usually to show me something that I am not seeing in my life that may be hindering me or could in the future. I have had dreams that have helped steer me away from unnecessary struggles and heartaches, even helped me to make important decisions. I've even had the same dream two nights in a row because I didn't take the hint the first time around. I rarely need to interpret these dreams because they are usually straight forward.

Like another poster said, there is nothing in scripture that suggests that people do not still have dreams and visions from God, but these are not to add to the completed Word or revelation contained in the Bible or disagree with it. I didn't believe that God sent dreams to people until I had one myself, it almost seems to me that those who are denying it deny because they have not experienced it. Some of these people may not even remember their dreams at all, let alone think any of their dreams have been God inspired. God is not limited in how He speaks to us, just because we have the entire Word of God doesn't mean that God does not communicate with people on a personal level if they are open to hearing Him.

This isn't just my opinion, this is my experience.

i guess my question would be about all the other dreams wherein one is uncertain about the origin, or they are nightmares.
do we assume all the good dreams are from God...stay neutral on the unknowns and reject the nightmares?

how do we know?

non-christians have premonitions and predictive dreams.

 

[zone]

I have a question. People who support the charismatic gifts and wonders say "God doesn't change". It's true. He doesn't.

So gifts and wonders ceasing means God has changed?

hi Beth....or.....signs and wonders stopping....then restarting more precisely for the continuationist.
no continuationist asserts they continued.
they say they restarted

 

[JaumeJ]

Please read the Word, and you will learn the Gospel has been given to us by Jesus Christ, Yeshua. He suffered and died for our sins and to give us the Good News. Built in to the Holy Scriptures is the stopping point in that there is no other Gospel, all has been delivered. I am very sorry you do not already know this. As for God talking to individuals, the infilling of the Holy Spirit comes with a message from God. Whether He speaks to all on matter for them or just to some I will not say, but He is not going to be muted by flesh. He has spoken to me, and what He has given me is in line with what is already written and what He had planned for me. Nothing has been missing since then. If people think He does not speak to His children anymore, than they do not believe in miracles, which are an everyday occurance to those who believe. This would mean to many God is dead. He is very much alive and working today, thus so His children work, amen.

You don't believe God is still writing new scripture.
Well don't you believe Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever?
Don't you believe God doesn't change?
Well if he wrote scripture in the past, he does now too!
I mean he doesn't change, right?

Tossing the verses about God not changing, and God being the same, at people who believe certain things were for a time and season, well it's just not a valid thing. Especially considering the fact even you think God has quit doing certain things, like writing new scripture.

If someone accused you of saying God has changed, and isn't the same, because you believe he no longer writes scripture, I'd say such a person tossing that accusation around is really misapplying said verses.

 

[cookie39]

Now if we look at the people in the bible who God came to in a dream, it was not for any end time events.... Nebbucanezer... about what God was going to do to humble him, Joseph's dream, and Mary who had a vision, and her husband Joseph when God came to him and told him to take baby Jesus to Egypt because the king was going to kill him.... there are so many of these in the bible which had nothing to do with end time events.......... nor the adding or changing of scripture........ but the adding or changing of lives... I don't think nothing that happens in our person individual lives will add to scripture or make a whole new bible, exspecially if it is not against the Word of God, but yet prove it to be right and good...

 

[zone]

Now if we look at the people in the bible who God came to in a dream, it was not for any end time events.... Nebbucanezer... about what God was going to do to humble him, Joseph's dream, and Mary who had a vision, and her husband Joseph when God came to him and told him to take baby Jesus to Egypt because the king was going to kill him.... there are so many of these in the bible which had nothing to do with end time events.......... nor the adding or changing of scripture........ but the adding or changing of lives...

the bible isn't about you cookie.
you're not in it.
it's complete.
if you want to talk about the dreams in scripture do so.
if you want to talk about your own, stand on your guesswork....the interpretation of your dreams is not recorded in scripture and are not trustworthy for anyone.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Please read the Word, and you will learn the Gospel has been given to us by Jesus Christ, Yeshua. He suffered and died for our sins and to give us the Good News. Built in to the Holy Scriptures is the stopping point in that there is no other Gospel, all has been delivered. I am very sorry you do not already know this. As for God talking to individuals, the infilling of the Holy Spirit comes with a message from God. Whether He speaks to all on matter for them or just to some I will not say, but He is not going to be muted by flesh. He has spoken to me, and what He has given me is in line with what is already written and what He had planned for me. Nothing has been missing since then. If people think He does not speak to His children anymore, than they do not believe in miracles, which are an everyday occurance to those who believe. This would mean to many God is dead. He is very much alive and working today, thus so His children work, amen.

Not one person who believes in the ceasing of wonders in this thread believes God is dead.
Gifts, dreams,visions, and miracles doesnt give us our salvation.

 

[JaumeJ]

Who has declared gifts, dreams, visions and miracles give salvation? Only the acceptance of the the free gift of the Blood of the Lamb of Yahweh gives salvation. As for those who believe in the ceasing of wonders, this is their faith, and if in the sight of God they have a clear conscience there is absolutely no sin, however my post is in direct response to one who tells me God does not speak to individuals because all has been written. No one said there was to be writing, and all I can do, with a clear conscience in the sight of God is tell my own experience and what I know of some others. Now, please do not level an inferred accusation, I can only say what I know and have experienced, and I have never even approached saying people are saved in any other manner, to hint at such shows you do not understand what I have posted. Please reread.

Not one person who believes in the ceasing of wonders in this thread believes God is dead.
Gifts, dreams,visions, and miracles doesnt give us our salvation.