Daniel is out of chronological order.

[peterT]

. God is looking at the heart, not the doctrine. If salvation depended on having perfect doctrine then none of us are going to heaven because only God understands His word perfectly.

Yes God looks on the heart within the boundaries of our doctrine within the boundaries of obedience to his word.

And our doctrine is to believe on him whom he has sent.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


This is just some of our doctrine.


John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

This is our doctrine, to eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, and God looks on the heart within the boundaries of this doctrine.

This is our doctrine, and God looks on the heart within the boundaries of our doctrine within the boundaries of obedience to his word.

If he/God looks on the heart without are doctrine without us believing and obeying he word we wouldn’t need Jesus and anybody could be saved.

Also, if God looks on the heart and he does, then why have you got God looking on the flesh of the Jews?

Do you not know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

 

[Therapon]

[QUOTE=1still_waters;962048]I'm confused can you be more direct? Please answer each.

1.Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?
2.Are unbelieving Jews saved?
3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to obfuscate, brother, I could honestly answer NO to all three questions as they are written, but you want to know what I actually believe and that can’t be said in 25 words or less. We certainly agree on one foundational truth, that there is no salvation outside of the Cross of the Lord Jesus.

1. Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?

A Jew cannot reject what he has been sovereignly prevented from seeing, Romans 11:8 states: “according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.” That is what I was trying to get across through Rabbi Isadore Zwern’s testimony. I spoke with that beloved brother about 20 years ago and he told me, “I have been dedicated to G-d since childhood. I was raised to be a rabbi and have been aware of the presence of the Kodesh Ruach (the Holy Spirit) all my life.” Now the Holy Spirit does not indwell the hearts of those who do not belong to G-d, so unless Rabbi Zwern was lying through his teeth, I had to conclude that it was possible for Jews during the Christian era to be saved without recognizing Yeshua as Messiah. I now have a host of Biblical and anecdotal evidence to support that conclusion.

2. Are unbelieving Jews saved?

Of course not, but neither Jew or Gentile is saved by the amount of doctrinal head knowledge he has. As the Lord said to Samuel, “man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh upon the heart.” Then to Micah, “what is required of a man, but to do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with his God.” My doctrine used to be so orthodox that you could have buried me with a post-hole digger, but then, reality hit me in the face like a sledgehammer. Over in the holy land is a little country called Israel, established in 1948, Jerusalem freed of Gentile domination in 1967. Those two events fulfill more Bible prophecy than anything else that’s happened since the Cross. Today, thousands of Jews go to the Wailing Wall with prayer shawls and yarmulkes on, imploring G-d to send Messiah quickly to save Israel. And who might their Messiah be? The same wonderful Lord Jesus you and I serve.

3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?

It is impossible for a Jew to reject what he has been sovereignly prevented from seeing! But we then have to ask, why did our heavenly Father blind His chosen people to the Gospel? Because God honors his own word! To whit: “Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall everything be established.” According to Revelation in 11:3- 4, the two witnesses are “two olive trees and two candlesticks that stand before the God of the earth.” From Revelation 1:20, candlesticks are churches, ergo: the two witnesses are two groups of “called out ones” that witness to the glory and majesty of sovereign God during the Christian era. Then Romans 11:24-25, 11:28-29 show the two olive trees to be the Jewish people and the Gentile church. If God had not kept His chosen people separate from the Gentiles, the Jews would have been absorbed into the church and they would have ceased to exist as a separate entity. Unbelievably important because without two witnesses, all the Bible prophecies about the restoration of Israel to the land could never have been fulfilled.

 

[peterT]

Well, Rev 1:20 states that candlesticks are churches and Rev 11:4 states that the two witnersses are candlesticks, so the two witneses are two churches. Then Rerv 11:4 also states that the two witnesses are two olive trees and Romans 11:24-25 state that two olive trees are the Jewish people and the Gentile believers. Romans 22:28-29 goes on to say . . .

"As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

I try not to editorialize Scripture, just believe it, though I'm abysmally poor at getting others to agree.

So the two witnesses are two churches

So a Christian church and a non-Christian church that’s compiled of unbelieving Jews?

What?, is one going to preach, believe on the lord Jesus and you will be saved, and he comes in the clouds at the last trumpet?

What’s the unbelieving Jews going to preach? That Jesus is not the Lord of lords, and King of kings.

And that you are not necessary antichrist if you don’t confess Jesus with your mouth

And he that confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Is NOT a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

And he is NOT a liar that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? And NOT antichrist


1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist

What are they going to preach when someone asks them about Jesus and salvation and the end of the world?

(He that winneth souls is wise) but they can’t even do that now can they.

There is only one body the church and it’s the Christian church, for there is on other that can bear any fruit.

John 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[zone]

So the two witnesses are two churches

So a Christian church and a non-Christian church that’s compiled of unbelieving Jews?

What?, is one going to preach, believe on the lord Jesus and you will be saved, and he comes in the clouds at the last trumpet?

What’s the unbelieving Jews going to preach? That Jesus is not the Lord of lords, and King of kings.

And that you are not necessary antichrist if you don’t confess Jesus with your mouth

And he that confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Is NOT a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

And he is NOT a liar that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? And NOT antichrist


1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist

What are they going to preach when someone asks them about Jesus and salvation and the end of the world?

(He that winneth souls is wise) but they can’t even do that now can they.

There is only one body the church and it’s the Christian church, for there is on other that can bear any fruit.

John 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

excellent discernment Peter.

PETER ROCKS


You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice.

 

[Therapon]

Not Sure if this helps, BUT: Daniel does have two languages in the "original", but is now one language for us to study, having all been translated during the time of Ptolemy of Egypt about the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and Johnathan Maccabees: that would be the version from which Jesus read.
As you read through Daniel there will be a chapter showing God's unending mercy and grace, and then one showing a prophetic view of world/Judaic events that will come to pass. The prophecies cover everything from the beginning of gentile rule of the world in the form of empires to the last days of gentile rule, and even beyond. (The Jews have not been ruled by Jews until their recent renewed regathering. (The nature of their rule is not the theocratic state as formerly, but is a reflection of gentile rule. The re-establishment of a temple with sacrifice for sin will be an abomination to God, slapping Christ with their rejection once again: but things are now changed and Daniel shows a very different outcome when taken into context with the Revelation.)

Wow, good thinking.

 

[Therapon]

see copy on that. I agree that if a Jew doesn't accept Jesus after the Holy Spirit reveals it to them than they are guilty. however, I don't agree with the following....

You believe there are blind Jews that the Holy SPirit does not reach out and call to acceptance of Jesus and those are saved even through they do not accept Jesus as Messiah?

Yes, because the Bible says so, Romans 11:8, 11:11, 11:28-29.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Admin desperately needs to split most of this off topic subject, regarding Jews in the Christian era off, and make it a dedicated thread.

So the two witnesses are two churches

So a Christian church and a non-Christian church that’s compiled of unbelieving Jews?

No. That of Christians and faithful Jews. Faithful Jews believe in our God YHWH as He revealed Himself through our Old Testament scriptures. This isn't a new concept - except perhaps during the last century when the pop-Jesuit inspired eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism came into vogue.

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

 

[Abiding]

But the meaning in context is that they were cut off because of unbelief.
Not just willy nilly but because of unbelief. Thats what your not getting.
As Jesus told them, if you knew Abraham you would know me.
Jesus also said about the same thing about Moses being their judge.
If any Jew had really had a heart for God like the centurion they would have been
saved through Jesus and the gospel. If no heart for God then blindness and hardening.
No wiggle room in there for anything else. Cut off or grafted.

 

[zone]

I'm confused can you be more direct? Please answer each.

1.Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?

2. unbelieving Jews saved?

3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?

I am not trying to obfuscate, brother, I could honestly answer NO to all three questions as they are written, but you want to know what I actually believe and that can’t be said in 25 words or less. We certainly agree on one foundational truth, that there is no salvation outside of the Cross of the Lord Jesus.


1. Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?


A Jew cannot reject what he has been sovereignly prevented from seeing, Romans 11:8 states: “according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.” That is what I was trying to get across through Rabbi Isadore Zwern’s testimony. I spoke with that beloved brother about 20 years ago and he told me, “I have been dedicated to G-d since childhood. I was raised to be a rabbi and have been aware of the presence of the Kodesh Ruach (the Holy Spirit) all my life.” Now the Holy Spirit does not indwell the hearts of those who do not belong to G-d, so unless Rabbi Zwern was lying through his teeth, I had to conclude that it was possible for Jews during the Christian era to be saved without recognizing Yeshua as Messiah. I now have a host of Biblical and anecdotal evidence to support that conclusion.


2. Are unbelieving Jews saved?


Of course not, but neither Jew or Gentile is saved by the amount of doctrinal head knowledge he has. As the Lord said to Samuel, “man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh upon the heart.” Then to Micah, “what is required of a man, but to do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with his God.” My doctrine used to be so orthodox that you could have buried me with a post-hole digger, but then, reality hit me in the face like a sledgehammer. Over in the holy land is a little country called Israel, established in 1948, Jerusalem freed of Gentile domination in 1967. Those two events fulfill more Bible prophecy than anything else that’s happened since the Cross. Today, thousands of Jews go to the Wailing Wall with prayer shawls and yarmulkes on, imploring G-d to send Messiah quickly to save Israel. And who might their Messiah be? The same wonderful Lord Jesus you and I serve.


3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?


It is impossible for a Jew to reject what he has been sovereignly prevented from seeing! But we then have to ask, why did our heavenly Father blind His chosen people to the Gospel? Because God honors his own word! To whit: “Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall everything be established.” According to Revelation in 11:3- 4, the two witnesses are “two olive trees and two candlesticks that stand before the God of the earth.” From Revelation 1:20, candlesticks are churches, ergo: the two witnesses are two groups of “called out ones” that witness to the glory and majesty of sovereign God during the Christian era. Then Romans 11:24-25, 11:28-29 show the two olive trees to be the Jewish people and the Gentile church. If God had not kept His chosen people separate from the Gentiles, the Jews would have been absorbed into the church and they would have ceased to exist as a separate entity. Unbelievably important because without two witnesses, all the Bible prophecies about the restoration of Israel to the land could never have been fulfilled.

1. Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?


I had to conclude that it was possible for Jews during the Christian era to be saved without recognizing Yeshua as Messiah.


2. Are unbelieving Jews saved?


And who might their Messiah be? The same wonderful Lord Jesus you and I serve.


3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?


It is impossible for a Jew to reject what he has been sovereignly prevented from seeing! But we then have to ask, why did our heavenly Father blind His chosen people to the Gospel?

If God had not kept His chosen people separate from the Gentiles, the Jews would have been absorbed into the church and they would have ceased to exist as a separate entity.


.............................

this is not heretical how?

 

[PeteWaldo]

But the meaning in context is that they were cut off because of unbelief.
Not just willy nilly but because of unbelief.

That's right. Yet faithful Jews believe in YHWH. How are the branches described that are broken off?

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Thats what your not getting.
As Jesus told them, if you knew Abraham you would know me.
Jesus also said about the same thing about Moses being their judge.
If any Jew had really had a heart for God like the centurion they would have been
saved through Jesus and the gospel. If no heart for God then blindness and hardening.
No wiggle room in there for anything else. Cut off or grafted.

 

[zone]

That's right. Yet faithful Jews believe in YHWH. How are the branches described that are broken off?

John 14:6
Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

~

you people do NOT believe the Lord Jesus, who is I AM.

 

[Therapon]

So the two witnesses are two churches.

I believe the two witnesses to be the Gentile church and the Jewish people (rather than Enoch and Elijah) because it can be supported by the Bible. I leave the disagreements and doctrinal debates to others.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Folks seem to be missing the point that concluded the post and why Jews were separated. The 500 pound gorilla in the room. Our brother concluded:

"Unbelievably important because without two witnesses, all the Bible prophecies about the restoration of Israel to the land could never have been fulfilled."

A fulfillment of prophecy so stunning that Ezekiel's prophecy suggests that even "the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD"

 

[Abiding]

That's right. Yet faithful Jews believe in YHWH. How are the branches described that are broken off?

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

If faithful Jews knew YHWH then they would know Jesus. Thats all there is to it.
Natural branches mean zip. Children of the flesh will not receive the promises.
I didnt understand what your point was.

 

[zone]

Admin desperately needs to split most of this off topic subject, regarding Jews in the Christian era off, and make it a dedicated thread.

this is NOT off topic.

it's all the SAME topic.

No. That of Christians and faithful Jews. Faithful Jews believe in our God YHWH as He revealed Himself through our Old Testament scriptures. This isn't a new concept - except perhaps during the last century when the pop-Jesuit inspired eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism came into vogue.

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

BELIEVERS NOT UNBELIEVERS

you DENY what Jesus Himself said to the unbelieving jews in parables - IF THEY BELIEVED MOSES and THE PROPHETS they WOULD believe in Jesus.

faithful jews believe in CHRIST!

ALL OF THEM!

this is intolerable.
total denial of the Lord's Own words!

 

[peterT]

How are the branches described that are broken off?
.

Where did you get that from?

Have you not read they can be grafted back in again, that’s not being described because they are broken off.

That's right. Yet faithful Jews believe in YHWH. .

What does the mean?.Faithfull Jews.

Faithfull to the word of the lord?

If they were faithful they would have listened to Moses.

John5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[zone]

If faithful Jews knew YHWH then they would know Jesus. Thats all there is to it.
Natural branches mean zip. Children of the flesh will not receive the promises.
I didnt understand what your point was.

how long is this going to be allowed?

and these people are coming in in droves suddenly.

outrageous!

 

[Therapon]

If faithful Jews knew YHWH then they would know Jesus. Thats all there is to it.

No so! Remember Romans 11:8? "according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day."

Jews cannot reject what they have been sovereignly prevented from seeing. You don't blame a legless man because he cannot walk, do you?

 

[PeteWaldo]

this is NOT off topic.

it's all the SAME topic.



BELIEVERS NOT UNBELIEVERS

you DENY what Jesus Himself said to the unbelieving jews in parables - IF THEY BELIEVED MOSES and THE PROPHETS they WOULD believe in Jesus.

faithful jews believe in CHRIST!

That is what Jesus said to those Jews, however we also learned from Paul that some Jews were blinded. But you've certainly got no shortage of historical company in punitive supersessionism.

ALL OF THEM!

this is intolerable.
total denial of the Lord's Own words!

So then what do you make of 6 million Jews, ruling and reigning again in Israel, after 2500 years of being scattered among the Gentile nations? Even as that tiny little strip of land emerged from total desolation of 200 years ago, to becoming one of the most vibrant economies, and the geopolitical focus of the world.

 

[cfultz3]

Is it correct to say that Jesus is Jehovah?