The Return of Jews to Israel

[PeteWaldo]

same old same old....i see you added the word number...when the word doesnt mean number...thats why we have division
over this.

No I just failed to enclose that in quotes as I did the other verse snippets:

NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

RSV Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

But I did notice that you failed to answer the question. When do you believe that was, or is, or is to be?

 

[YahuShuaIsLord]

[h=1]Israel is Mine! Watchmen, Sound the Trumpet, the Alarm of War!...Says the Lord[/h]


11/1/07 From God The Father - A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
Thus says The Lord God: Weep, O nations! Cry, all peoples! The Lord has lifted up His voice, and His face is set hard against you!...
O mighty and perverse nations, you shall be forsaken and left utterly desolate!... IN RUINS! Says The Lord God of Hosts. No more shall you contend with Me in your uplifting, in your upholding, of all this wickedness!... YOU HAVE FORSAKEN ME! No more shall you stand there before My face, with your noses in the air!

Behold, even My own people go the way of the afflicted of sin, ​

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Following after those desolate of the Spirit​

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Who remain married to this world...​

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Yet I shall save them out of all their troubles!​

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For My own name’s sake will I do it!...​

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For the sake of Judah, I will cover them;​

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For the sake of Jacob, I shall hold them in safety;​

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And for the sake of David, My servant, I shall gather them under My wing.​

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O city of David, My Jerusalem, give Me glory! For The Lord has seen your travail, for it has come. Yet it shall not stand, for you are Mine... I am married unto you! Vengeance is Mine! Says The Lord. And I, Myself, shall go before you and fight against them!
And those who devise evil against you shall be thrown down! They shall not stand! For they have agreed together as one, and as one shall their agreement be turned into death... The grave shall be their reward! Recompense, in full, shall I give them in My hot displeasure! In My fury I shall destroy them!... Save a sixth part who shall not be counted among the condemned, the punished of My anger, says The Lord.

Beloved of The Shepherd, this you shall see;​

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Lo, you shall behold it with your own eyes... ​

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And shortly thereafter, you and yours shall be no more in the earth.




TRUMPETCALLOFGODONLINE (HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD)​

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[RedTent]

Thats all fine and dandy, but for a jew to accept jesus would be just as damning to their religion than a muslim. They are still our enemy concerning the gospel.. because they do not have the gospel in their heart, and they will lead people to hell their way..

You are not reading the word of God in Scripture. Scripture says that God created this race out of Abraham to use to show us who He is. Scripture says that the way to salvation is through Christ. They talk of the Messiah, are still looking for Him and most do not recognize Christ as the true Messiah. We are to recognize that they are doing this in error, but scripture predicted they would and also tells us God will take care of it. Scripture even tells us God is using this to help us see the way to salvation.

In the last days, scripture says, we will see that God made them His chosen people and we will go back to following them. If we follow them, I feel sure God will see to that they will recognize the Messiah in the Christ who died for our sins. As it is, it is wrong for us not to follow them in knowing our Father God, the Father of the Messiah who died for our sins. We pray to "Our Father who is in heaven" yet put the Son who the Father gave for us ahead of the Father they know of. They are in grave, serious error. We are to see their error, but not be blind to the good because we see it. They are not denying a Messiah, they are denying that the Messiah was the man who lived in about the year 30, and all we know about. We are told to pray for them. We haven't been instructed to pray for the people determined to give theirselves to idol worship, just to be sure they are told of the One True God.

Scripture talks about false Gods and following them. There is no similarity at ALL beween the God of the jews, who is the same God as Christ talks of as His FATHER, and the God the Muslims have created who is man made.

As far as denying Christ, I wonder at how the Jews stick so to this and conclude it is part of God's plan and I am to let it alone in my mind. I follow scripture in Romans to conclude this. But to deny the Jews their faith in the very same God we have, the one they pray to with the very same prayer we use, is sacrilege. Before the time that Christ lived with us as a man, they were using a prayer we call the amidah. If you compare this prayer to the one Christ told us to sample out prayers after, you will see it is a longer version of our prayer.

 

[Abiding]

I believe "IF" a person actually worshiped God using the OT
and sought Him with their whole heart, He would lead
them to Christ.

 

[Abiding]

No I just failed to enclose that in quotes:

NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

RSV Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

But I did notice that you failed to answer the question. When do you believe that was, or is, or is to be?

Not sure, sometime in the first century.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Not sure, sometime in the first century.

So a couple decades after the cross Paul wrote:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And Gentiles have been coming to Christ for the last nearly 2,000 years, yet you suggest that it was over and done with in the first century?

 

[psychomom]

I believe the old covent "waxeth away" as the Gospel indicates. But I also believe that God blinded some Jews, just as scripture indicates. For me to believe they were blinded so they could be condemned would be for me to believe that God did so in order for them to perish.

It sounds to me as if you're saying every Jew who has died without faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah has not been condemned.
That faith in some nebulous messiah to come (who will bring about the earthly kingdom they wanted in the first place) is enough.

*sigh*
I have to trot these back out every now and again...

Acts 4
5 On the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem;
6 and Annas the high priest was there, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of high-priestly descent.
7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, “By what power, or in what name, have you done this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,
9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this Name this man stands here before you in good health.
11 “He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.

12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Yes, under the old covenant salvation was by faith in the Promise---Who has come!
Now there is neither Jew nor Greek.
There is salvation in Christ Jesus.
That's it.
All who perish without it are justly condemned.

I'm not saying there won't come a day when God will reveal His Son to many, many Jews.
but
Jew or gentile...it's saved by grace through faith in Jesus.

 

[psychomom]

Those under the Old Covenant were not saved by the law. They were saved by faith in Christ and were born again just as you and I are.
1Co 10:1- 4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

If the Old Testament Scriptures could lead Old Testament saints to come to know Christ then why couldn't the Jew that has been given the spirit of slumber until the fulness of the gentiles comes in be saved by coming to know Christ that way to? Wasn't God's covenant with the Jews everalsting? How can it be everlasting if God does not keep some of the Jews under it until His return? Could Romans4:15 hold the key? Will God count the Jews guilty for not seeing something He does not allow them to see?

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Can you show Scripturally how one can be elect and still be an enemy of the gospel?

God's covenant IS everlasting.
It is now entered into by faith in Jesus Christ--that Name we have been given by which we must be saved.
Not some messiah to come, unrecognized by people yet God still honors that?

Why destroy the temple?
Would God, at some point, be pleased to have sacrifices offered for sin there?
After His own Son was sacrificed?

 

[Abiding]

So a couple decades after the cross Paul wrote:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And Gentiles have been coming to Christ for the last nearly 2,000 years, yet you suggest that it was over and done with in the first century?

Yup thats how i see it. Romans was written in the early to mid 50s. The Gentiles were
fully established in the church and received the revelation of twain one new man. Done deal.
Theres a better word to use for fulness if you mean a number rather than meaning fulness
of blessing and status.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

same old same old....i see you added the word number...when the word doesnt mean number...thats why we have division
over this.

(CEV)
My friends, I don't want you Gentiles to be too proud of yourselves. So I will explain the mystery of what has happened to the people of Israel. Some of them have become stubborn, and they will stay like that until the complete number of you Gentiles has come in.

(ISV)
For I do not want you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, so that you will not claim to be wiser than you are. A partial hardening has come on Israel until thefull number of the gentiles has come in.

(GNB)
There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God.

(LITV) For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;

(MKJV)
For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in.

I don't see where he "added" Abiding.

1Christianwarrior316

 

[PeteWaldo]

It sounds to me as if you're saying every Jew who has died without faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah has not been condemned.
That faith in some nebulous messiah to come (who will bring about the earthly kingdom they wanted in the first place) is enough.

*sigh*
I have to trot these back out every now and again...

No need since I am not a futurist, nor do I expect a millennial reign of Christ on earth, since my view is amillennial. I apply the traditional historicist approach - uniformly - to all bible prophecy. I don't buy into the pop-jesuit inventions of futurism or preterism that came into vogue in the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

[Abiding]

well alot of historists are shifting over to orthodox preterist
i think because we dress sorta hip and have better lunch gatherings.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Yup thats how i see it.

That's also the way 17th century Roman Church Jesuit Luis Alcazar saw it.

Romans was written in the early to mid 50s. The Gentiles were
fully established in the church and received the revelation of twain one new man. Done deal.
Theres a better word to use for fulness if you mean a number rather than meaning fulness
of blessing and status.

But that would put it at the cross, which would put it a couple decades before Paul penned that verse, referring to a time in his future.

 

[PeteWaldo]

well alot of historists are shifting over to orthodox preterist
i think because we dress sorta hip and have better lunch gatherings.

No shortage of futurists have been deceived by the other Roman Church Jesuit invention as well. But we already saw the difficulty it presented for you in just one simple verse.

The fact is that you yourself are a historicist, as that is the approach of all Christians and Jews to Old Testament prophecy. It was also the approach of the church for New Testament prophecy up until the 19th-20th century when the pop eschatologies took over, perhaps right on schedule:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[PeteWaldo]

Perhaps also the reason that none have found themselves willing to respond to the single request I made in the OP:

I would appreciate it if members began their replies as to whether you believe the restoration of Jews to Israel is of the Lord, as millions believe was prophesied - and as Christians anticipated [through prophecy centuries] before that restoration began to take place - or whether you believe it is of Satan, and why, or offer another alternative.

 

[Abiding]

That's also the way 17th century Roman Church Jesuit Luis Alcazar saw it.

But that would put it at the cross, which would put it a couple decades before Paul penned that verse, referring to a time in his future.

I missed that. What date do you have for Romans? I think it was a while before Paul said he
preached to the known world. I just dont think the context is referring to a number(necessarily) but rather
shift over from the OldCovenant to the new and have the gentiles comfortably grafted in with
full status and blessing to show the Jews and to make them jealous. Which hardly these days
could we ever make them jealous, they look at us like idiots. Maybe after AD70 sometime.

 

[Abiding]

Perhaps also the reason that none have found themselves willing to respond to the single request I made in the OP:

I would appreciate it if members began their replies as to whether you believe the restoration of Jews to Israel is of the Lord, as millions believe was prophesied - and as Christians anticipated [through prophecy centuries] before that restoration began to take place - or whether you believe it is of Satan, and why, or offer another alternative.

Well to look at how they came about and who is running the place id say the devil.
But surely the Lord will use it for His glory.

 

[Abiding]

No shortage of futurists have been deceived by the other Roman Church Jesuit invention as well. But we already saw the difficulty it presented for you in just one simple verse.

The fact is that you yourself are a historicist, as that is the approach of all Christians and Jews to Old Testament prophecy. It was also the approach of the church for New Testament prophecy up until the 19th-20th century when the pop eschatologies took over, perhaps right on schedule:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Are you gona teach us some things? or just puff up and be smug?

 

[PeteWaldo]

I missed that. What date do you have for Romans?

I don't know exactly where I got it from but I have winter 57-58. But of course it's is irrelevant, because if he penned it any time after the cross, you cannot use the cross as the time he referenced.

I think it was a while before Paul said he
preached to the known world. I just dont think the context is referring to a number9necessarily) but rather
shift over from the OldCovenant to the new and have the gentiles comfortably grafted in with
full status and blessing to show the Jews and to make them jealous. Which hardly these days
could we ever make them jealous, they look at us like idiots. Maybe after AD70 sometime.

But now you are wandering off into presumption to fit your pop-eschatological approach.
You even have to pretend that the "times of the Gentiles" in Jerusalem were fulfilled in the 1st century, when the Roman GENTILES came back to kill another 500 to 750,000 Jews less than 70 years later. But with eyes open to history a person can see the time of the Gentiles in Jerusalem were not fulfilled until Jews gained control in 1967.

 

[psychomom]

No need since I am not a futurist, nor do I expect a millennial reign of Christ on earth, since my view is amillennial. I apply the traditional historicist approach - uniformly - to all bible prophecy. I don't buy into the pop-jesuit inventions of futurism or preterism that came into vogue in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Please accept my apologies, Pete?
Been a bit ill lately, and am more impatient than usual.
Off to see the doc.
Thanks for your patience.