The problem of female pastors

[savedNblessed]

Maybe you should have a word with eternally-gratefull, because he's not listening to me. Maybe he'll listen to a woman.

Oh goshh! Don't put me on the spot here. I get really awkward when that happens

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

It amazes me that people say God can't do something. God does what He pleases. If He wants to use cricket, will you challenge Him on that. Who are we to say what God can use.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Who are we to say what God can use.

No one is telling God what to do except those who reject what God has said for us to do, and respond with "but thta ain't how you're supposed to do it!"

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

As a matter of fact many people say what they gonna do when they see Jesus. I gonna tell Him this or I'm gonna say that. What you will do is suck dirt. Then, if He lets you you can stand and speak.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As a matter of fact many people say what they gonna do when they see Jesus. I gonna tell Him this or I'm gonna say that. What you will do is suck dirt. Then, if He lets you you can stand and speak.

most of us will be too scared and appauled as we realise how undeserving we are.. we probably will not say a word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe you should have a word with eternally-gratefull, because he's not listening to me. Maybe he'll listen to a woman.

Nah,, would not help. we have a female elder in my church, and she has done many great things for God. Men are humble enough in my church they do not have to think God can not use ANYONE in his service..

it is the pride of men which brings people like you.. There is no male or female in Gods kingdom, we are all ONE.

as for proof. again, You were shown it earlier in this thread. go look it up!

 

[TruthWarrior]

It amazes me that people say God can't do something. God does what He pleases. If He wants to use cricket, will you challenge Him on that. Who are we to say what God can use.

Homosexuals often use the same argument. They say things like, "I prayed to God over the issue of my homosexual relationship, and God finally told me that it's okay to get married to my homosexual spouse. God then called me to preach to the churches to tell them that same sex marriage is perfectly fine."

It also amazes me at how much Christians try to change God's word.

 

[TruthWarrior]

Nah,, would not help. we have a female elder in my church, and she has done many great things for God. Men are humble enough in my church they do not have to think God can not use ANYONE in his service..

it is the pride of men which brings people like you.. There is no male or female in Gods kingdom, we are all ONE.

as for proof. again, You were shown it earlier in this thread. go look it up!

There are also homosexual churches who use the very same arguments as what you do. If the men at your church want to be under the leadership and authority of a woman pastor then good for you. It still doesn't make it Biblical.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Homosexuals often use the same argument. They say things like, "I prayed to God over the issue of my homosexual relationship, and God finally told me that it's okay to get married to my homosexual spouse. God then called me to preach to the churches to tell them that same sex marriage is perfectly fine."

It also amazes me at how much Christians try to change God's word.

thats not even the same,, and a lame excuse to ignore a God fearing woman the ability to be used by God if God wishes to use her just because a few proud men might get all bent out of shape.

Back in NY days,, yes,, Women were second hand citizens, A man walking into the church back then would be offended,, so Yes,, Paul asked women to be quiet to not offend anyone,

the only men who would be offended here are fundamentalist christians who are to proud to let go.. The world today is not offended by it, You are.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I see no mention of pastor there.

Please think about what your posting before you criticize someone with unfounded passages.

and also look at history. and how women were treated.

1 Tim 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

1 Tim 3:2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Acts 20:28(about elders)Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood

1 Peter 5:1-2 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;

Eph 4:11 is the only time the word "pastor" is mentioned in the Gospel. It has been confirmed that a pastor is like a shepherd, and the scriptures tell elders to be shepherd. A pastor and an elder are actually in the same category. One can look at scripture and see that "pastor" is another word for "elder"
Therefore, a woman is to never be an elder/pastor

 

[TruthWarrior]

Oh goshh! Don't put me on the spot here. I get really awkward when that happens

Well, it will probably drive you mad. You can take a gorilla to a toilet but you can't make it poop. Let the blind lead the blind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are also homosexual churches who use the very same arguments as what you do. If the men at your church want to be under the leadership and authority of a woman pastor then good for you. It still doesn't make it Biblical.

It don;t make it NOT BIBLICAL.. only in your twisted interpretation..

why are you to proud to be taught by a woman?

My elders do not rule over people. they serve people, which is what a pastor is supposed to do!

 

[TruthWarrior]

thats not even the same,, and a lame excuse to ignore a God fearing woman the ability to be used by God if God wishes to use her just because a few proud men might get all bent out of shape.

Back in NY days,, yes,, Women were second hand citizens, A man walking into the church back then would be offended,, so Yes,, Paul asked women to be quiet to not offend anyone,

the only men who would be offended here are fundamentalist christians who are to proud to let go.. The world today is not offended by it, You are.

I was just pointing out that homosexuals use the same argument to justify going against God's word, just like you're doing.

 

[TruthWarrior]

1 Tim 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

1 Tim 3:2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Acts 20:28(about elders)Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood

1 Peter 5:1-2 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;

Eph 4:11 is the only time the word "pastor" is mentioned in the Gospel. It has been confirmed that a pastor is like a shepherd, and the scriptures tell elders to be shepherd. A pastor and an elder are actually in the same category. One can look at scripture and see that "pastor" is another word for "elder"
Therefore, a woman is to never be an elder/pastor

Thank you Elizabeth, but you're wasting your time. Eternally-Gratefull is another victim of the feminist agenda. No amount of Scripture will change his mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok my mistake, it was not in this thread..

I will just repost.. this is the best post I saw which shows what I see, and I do not have time to research and put it together myself right now. This shows women deacons and an apostle..

HSfilled lady - I have addressed all the Biblical support in many posts in another thread, which people are trying to superseded with this one. I am beginning to think that not one person has read them.

I discussed the issue of authority, or authentein in post #7 in http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...1-tim-2-12-speaking-woman-not-teach-have.html

So for those who missed it.

"Well, this is the kind of doctrinal error that comes out of using English as the basis for your beliefs.

The word in 1 Tim. 2 translated as "authority" in some versions, is a called a hapax legomen.

That means it only occurs ONCE in the whole Bible. So your other comparisons are not valid.

The word is "authentein" in Greek - αύθενείν. Some translators put it as

"To act on one's authority, to exercise authority, to have mastery, to be dominating."

But all these definitions come from non-Biblical sources and there is nothing to compare in the Bible to see how Paul is using the word.

Contemporaneous sources (writings that were written as the same time as the Bible) also say this word could be "murderer, ruler or master." In fact, it is probably actually a vulgar form of another word, autodikein (to take justice into one's own hand.).

Really, you have to look at the context in which 1 Timothy was written. Paul was writing to Timothy who was in Ephesus. Now Paul had already had big problems with the silversmiths in Ephesus, in Acts 19. Because Artemis, a fertility goddess was who they worshiped, and the silversmiths were making big money off the tourist statues and paraphernalia they were hawking, and they did NOT want to see Jesus and the unseen God taking over.

The priestesses of Artemis were pretty wicked women, and there was a cult of them who "ruled over men", subjected them to humiliation and slavery and assigned them female tasks." Now we do not know if it was these women, but their worship practices were pretty undignified, including temple prostitution. Worship was noisy and frenzied.

It is likely some of these women either became Christians, or more likely tried to infiltrate the church, and carried their worship into the services. I don't think that kind of thing should be tolerated by women or men.

I think many scholars would probably lean to "domineering" as the way to translate this verse.

It would be strange to think that Paul, who appointed Phoebe as a deacon, and Junia as an apostle, and said,

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

would suddenly start making statements that should apply to the church for all time, which were totally contrary to his statements in other books.

So my thought, is read in context, this verse is instructing Timothy not to let the ex-priestesses dominate and take over the church.

If you want to check this out further, I suggest the book "I Suffer Not a Woman" by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger. It gets very deeply into the Ephesus culture AND the Greek.

However, I do like you basis premises that women should be allowed to preach. Just back it up a bit with the Greek and you will be really contributing to the future, (I hope!) of the church."

And post # 19 in the same thread.

"Cobus, Junia was a WOMAN. Here is a link to the latest research on both the gender and whether she was an apostle or not.

Junia, A Female Apostle

Translation bias is a big issue, and even John Piper and Wayne Grudem, who are complementarians can find no cases of the name Junia being a man in all concurrent and ancient Greek writings or in the Bible because it is a hapax logemen.

As for Phoebe (please spell it correctly) being a servant, I say Amen! to that. Because ALL the deacons were servants. The word in Greek is dikonos διάκονος, which means, according to Strong's #1249:

servant/attendant/teacher/pastor/deacon/deaconness/minister/servant.

It is the same word, used in 1 Tim 3:10, 13; Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8, 12.

All these verses the word is translated as "deacon" according to Strong's.

This is a blatant example of translational bias. If Paul had wanted to say "servant" he would have used the word "doulos" or slave/servant. This word is used in other places. But when referring to the office of DEACON, Paul always used diakonos. But since King James and many translators following believed women could not be in leadership, nor be deacons, they only used the word "servant" once - and that is in the case of Phoebe, a woman. Pure and simply a bad translation. If it is deacon in all the other places it should be deacon in the case of Phoebe.

And the plural form of diakonos in 1 Tim 3:8-11 could likely be deaconness, simply because the plural of the word in Greek, means both women and men.

Nor is anyone here addressing the OP's original topic, which was the use of the word "authority" in 1 Tim 2:11-12, which is actually authentein in Greek, and does NOT mean authority, but rather "domineering". Which no Christian should be.

Cobo you are either Southern Baptist or Catholic, and if SBC, then we must learn from the sad "twisted" example of Texas. Such horrid things going on in my former denomination, that many have left that denomination, or formed their own state conventions. The take over of the SBC was engineered and planned and documented. The result is that women who were experts, and more qualified than men have been fired, men who did not agree with the extreme right wing stance of the Paige Patterson and his henchmen have been forced to sign documents they did not agree with, if they were close to retirement, or leave and form new Seminaries.

How sad that mis-translations of the Bible have resulted in women being relegated to being barefoot and pregnant, instead of being able to be part of the movement to spread the gospel. Dating back to SBC missionary Lottie Moon in the 18th century, who fought to be allowed God's call to China, and led thousands to the Lord, she was not allowed to preach to men in that country.

The result was the men would stand outside and listen and many were converted. One man became an evangelist as a result of Lottie Moon's ministry, and led 10,000 people to the Lord.

Thinking strictly from a numbers point of view. If God wants the gospel to go forth into all the word, (Matt. 28:18-20), then why would he exclude over 50% of the population of the world from being able to preach and teach the word of God.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore andmake disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" Matt. 28:18-20

"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsand teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ," Eph. 4:11-12

I am not seeing any qualifications for gender in either scripture.

Saying women cannot be in authority is an example of misogyny at its worst. No wonder the spread of the gospel has been slowed down in the last century, and North America is not a leader in missions anymore, but instead are paying the price for wrong doctrine, and wrong use of the Biblical text."

And Post #20
Just an addendum for those who don't read links. This is part of the text of my link, early in my last post.

"Junia was a female apostle. This is the preferred view. The evidence is authoritative, compelling, diverse, and objective. Junia has been demonstrated to be a woman based on the testimony of early manuscripts, recorded statements of various church leaders through the 12th century, and research performed by many other scholars attesting to the name Junia or Julia existing in ancient times.The evidence for a male reading was based on later manuscripts subject to the interpretations of scribes who thoughtIounian was a male and to the statement by one early church leader who was also mistaken as to the correct gender of Prisca. Computer-generated searches could find no example of a male Junias in ancient times nor is there any evidence proving that Junias was ever a contracted form of a longer name.
Junia and Andronicus were apostles. Numerous contemporary and past scholarship, lexical definitions, grammatical construction, and scriptural examples all provide the strongest support that episemoi en toisapostolois, naturally meant they were "outstanding among the apostles," just as Chrysostom so elegantly declared."

Bait and switch is NOT going to work with me, and I thank you for your interest! Or pretending to be stupid, and that you cannot compete with my training. Perhaps people should ask God and he will show you the material that is out there for the egalitarian view on women teaching in the church.

I have a list of scholarly books and can cite them, if anyone needs to check more sources.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Thank you Elizabeth, but you're wasting your time. Eternally-Gratefull is another victim of the feminist agenda. No amount of Scripture will change his mind.

I have "known" EG a long time. We disagree often. We still manage to get along without attacking each other too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank you Elizabeth, but you're wasting your time. Eternally-Gratefull is another victim of the feminist agenda. No amount of Scripture will change his mind.

I am a femenist huh??

lol.. you don;t know me at all!

 

[HoldingOn2013]

Just want to say to everyone that I'm so not a confrontational person, even with my bad temper. And I love how discussions here take off and we can have a serious conversation/debate. Feeling like giving everyone BIG hugs and kisses After all I am a woman and of the 2 sexes we tend to be more sentimental. I see both side but still have my opinion. God Bless!

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

Homosexuals often use the same argument. They say things like, "I prayed to God over the issue of my homosexual relationship, and God finally told me that it's okay to get married to my homosexual spouse. God then called me to preach to the churches to tell them that same sex marriage is perfectly fine."

It also amazes me at how much Christians try to change God's word.

I am not saying that God would use a homsexual or anyone that is against Him. But, if He wants to use a woman that loves and trust in Him. Why not. A man can be homsexual, will God use him just because he is a man. I will agree that most of the time God appoints men as pastors or preachers. But,if He wants to use a woman and He has. Then who are to cry foul against God and say He is wrong. It is obvious that He has used women on many occasions. Will we ask God to repent of His wrongdoing.

 

[TruthWarrior]

ok my mistake, it was not in this thread..

I will just repost.. this is the best post I saw which shows what I see, and I do not have time to research and put it together myself right now. This shows women deacons and an apostle..

This can easily be refuted:

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB).
This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Acts 2:17; 18:24-26; 21:8-9). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context.
When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity" (1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.
In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male (See article There were deaconesses, so there can be female elders and pastors). He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.
Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women. Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.
[h=2]What About Galatians 3:28?[/h]"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).
This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.
Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise," (v. 29).2 The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.
This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.
[h=2]Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority[/h]God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.
In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:11-14.