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T
I understand that. One needs to lean on God for direction, esp. when choosing the right deliverance ministry. I would recomend you with out hesitation. 
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Jesus referred to rebellious people as descendants of Abraham even though they didn't believe.
Jesus referring to someone as a descendant of Abraham does not equate to him calling them a believer.
John 8
[SUP]36 [/SUP]So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. [SUP]37 [/SUP]I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you look for an opportunity to kill me, because there is no place in you for my word. [SUP]38 [/SUP]I declare what I have seen in the Father’s presence; as for you, you should do what you have heard from the Father.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
Jesus referring to someone as a descendant of Abraham does not equate to him calling them a believer.
John 8
[SUP]36 [/SUP]So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. [SUP]37 [/SUP]I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you look for an opportunity to kill me, because there is no place in you for my word. [SUP]38 [/SUP]I declare what I have seen in the Father’s presence; as for you, you should do what you have heard from the Father.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
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P
You couldn't be more right about that in this day and age. And sorry brother Skolfield, I know you will be embarrassed by my blowing your horn in the following but I've had about enough, so let me help folks in here out with a little background. Brother Skolfield was raised in the scriptures on his mother's knee as missionaries in the Philippines. He spent his early childhood aboard the "Gospel Ship" with his mother, and father Captain Ellis Skolfield.
"The Presbyterian Philippine Mission turned the island of Palawan over to the fledgling Association of Baptists. The most practical way to evangelize a group of islands was with a ship. The very day after the Board voted to open this territory, God provided Captain Ellis Skolfield, an ex-Navy officer, who went from island to island in The Gospel Ship preaching, distributing literature-and pulling teeth!
Ed and Marian Bomm arrived in the Philippines in 1935. In addition to pastoring the First Baptist Church of Manila, he soon became the administrator and treasurer for the missionaries.
Bernard Bancroft sailed into Manila at the age of 19, ABWE's youngest ever missionary. He spent his first months of service aboard The Gospel Ship, then taught Bible to young students. Following his marriage to Eleanore Bailey the couple preached the gospel to what he called "these scattered bits of land," the more than 100 islands of the Sulu Sea in Palawan."
In his teens he attended a school for kids of missionaries that were out in the field, that could give their students a pass on most subjects, except when it came to bible study. Later in his teens Ellis joined the navy for a 6 year tour, and following his tour of duty he attended Columbia Bible college, focusing on biblical archaeology and eschatology. After that he was then in the world for a time, and eventually became as a successful businessman in printing and award winning graphic design. He eventually sold his business, and was called back into the Lord's service. Setting aside commentaries he plunged into the scriptures full-time, prayerfully allowing scripture to exegete itself, through the discipline hermeneutics. He has published several books and papers, and for over 30 years has tried to reintroduce the church to the traditional approach of historicism, through his Dan-Rev bible study.
I would suggest that if the church had stuck to the traditional historicist approach to prophecy, rather than giving itself over to the pop-eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism over the last century, instead of a bunch of futurists and preterists - who each must believe the other to be virtually 100% in error - wasting their time arguing in forums, more folks would be out there helping to point the way to the foot of the cross to the lost. Particularly the 1.5 billion poor deluded souls in Islam, who are required to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, DENY the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood AS ARTICLES OF THEIR FAITH in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.
If the church had instead continued in a UNIFORM approach to ALL bible prophecy of the historicist view, through which all Jews and Christians approach Old Testament prophecy, I would suggest that when Christians did fellowship together it would be more like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton had excitedly anticipated for our times:
"VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book because the time would be long ere these things would be accomplished: and it was some comfort that the Jewish nation, though, in the infancy of their return from Babylon, while they were few and weak, they met with obstructions in their work, were not persecuted for their religion till a long time after, when they had grown to some strength and maturity. He must seal the book because it would not be understood, and therefore would not be regarded, till the things contained in it were accomplished; but he must keep it safely, as a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service; for many shall then run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver. They shall run to and fro, to enquire out copies of it, shall collate them, and see that they be true and authentic. They shall read it over and over, shall meditate upon it, and run it over in their minds; discurrent—they shall discourse of it, and talk it over among themselves, and compare notes about it, if by any means they may sift out the meaning of it; and thus knowledge shall be increased. By consulting this prophecy on this occasion they shall be led to search other scriptures, which shall contribute much to their advancement in useful knowledge; for then shall we know if we follow on to know the Lord, Hos. 6:3. Those that would have their knowledge increased must take pains, must not sit still in slothfulness and bare wishes but run to and fro, must make use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved, and their acquaintance with the things of God improved, to know more and to know better what they do know. And let us here see reason to hope that, 1. Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe. 2. Those things of God which are despised and neglected, and thrown by as useless, shall be brought into reputation, shall be found to be of great service, and be brought into request; for divine revelation, however slighted for a time, shall be magnified and made honourable, and, above all, in the judgment of the great day, when the books shall be opened, and that book among the rest."
Some of us have come to realize the excitement that Matthew Henry anticipated for our times, but do we find a Berean spirited church running "to and fro" while digging "as for silver" and making "use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified" as Henry imagined?
Isaac Newton: "This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many." (Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)
Today almost the entirety of the prophet John's "whole world" carries the name of the Islamic beast, but the "church" can't see it because pop-eschatology necessarily excludes 1900 years of Christian era history from even being considered in bible prophecy, which includes 1400 years of THE false prophet Muhammad's cult's history. Yet we can see the present day reality with our own eyes. http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html
"Muslims are determined to impose their 'religion' all over Africa as well as in other continents and countries of the world. Islam has but one goal: rule the world at any cost!"
"And where are the International Human Rights Organizations?
Christians are burnt alive in Nigeria, a horrific Holocaust right in front of International indifference as denounced by Father Juan Carlos Martos on behalf of the Missionari Clarettiani via del Sacro Cuore di Maria, Rome, Italy." (link to article at United Copts)
Yet rather than recognize the treasure of an elder brother steeped in a lifetime of scripture in the genuine ecclesia, brother Skolfield has been met with scorn, false accusation, false characterization, and false witness by doctrinally blinded babes in Christ that exhibit milk still dribbling down their chins - if that.
"The Presbyterian Philippine Mission turned the island of Palawan over to the fledgling Association of Baptists. The most practical way to evangelize a group of islands was with a ship. The very day after the Board voted to open this territory, God provided Captain Ellis Skolfield, an ex-Navy officer, who went from island to island in The Gospel Ship preaching, distributing literature-and pulling teeth!
Ed and Marian Bomm arrived in the Philippines in 1935. In addition to pastoring the First Baptist Church of Manila, he soon became the administrator and treasurer for the missionaries.
Bernard Bancroft sailed into Manila at the age of 19, ABWE's youngest ever missionary. He spent his first months of service aboard The Gospel Ship, then taught Bible to young students. Following his marriage to Eleanore Bailey the couple preached the gospel to what he called "these scattered bits of land," the more than 100 islands of the Sulu Sea in Palawan."
In his teens he attended a school for kids of missionaries that were out in the field, that could give their students a pass on most subjects, except when it came to bible study. Later in his teens Ellis joined the navy for a 6 year tour, and following his tour of duty he attended Columbia Bible college, focusing on biblical archaeology and eschatology. After that he was then in the world for a time, and eventually became as a successful businessman in printing and award winning graphic design. He eventually sold his business, and was called back into the Lord's service. Setting aside commentaries he plunged into the scriptures full-time, prayerfully allowing scripture to exegete itself, through the discipline hermeneutics. He has published several books and papers, and for over 30 years has tried to reintroduce the church to the traditional approach of historicism, through his Dan-Rev bible study.
I would suggest that if the church had stuck to the traditional historicist approach to prophecy, rather than giving itself over to the pop-eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism over the last century, instead of a bunch of futurists and preterists - who each must believe the other to be virtually 100% in error - wasting their time arguing in forums, more folks would be out there helping to point the way to the foot of the cross to the lost. Particularly the 1.5 billion poor deluded souls in Islam, who are required to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, DENY the Son of God, and REJECT His shed blood AS ARTICLES OF THEIR FAITH in THE false prophet Muhammad alone.
If the church had instead continued in a UNIFORM approach to ALL bible prophecy of the historicist view, through which all Jews and Christians approach Old Testament prophecy, I would suggest that when Christians did fellowship together it would be more like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton had excitedly anticipated for our times:
"VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book because the time would be long ere these things would be accomplished: and it was some comfort that the Jewish nation, though, in the infancy of their return from Babylon, while they were few and weak, they met with obstructions in their work, were not persecuted for their religion till a long time after, when they had grown to some strength and maturity. He must seal the book because it would not be understood, and therefore would not be regarded, till the things contained in it were accomplished; but he must keep it safely, as a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service; for many shall then run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver. They shall run to and fro, to enquire out copies of it, shall collate them, and see that they be true and authentic. They shall read it over and over, shall meditate upon it, and run it over in their minds; discurrent—they shall discourse of it, and talk it over among themselves, and compare notes about it, if by any means they may sift out the meaning of it; and thus knowledge shall be increased. By consulting this prophecy on this occasion they shall be led to search other scriptures, which shall contribute much to their advancement in useful knowledge; for then shall we know if we follow on to know the Lord, Hos. 6:3. Those that would have their knowledge increased must take pains, must not sit still in slothfulness and bare wishes but run to and fro, must make use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved, and their acquaintance with the things of God improved, to know more and to know better what they do know. And let us here see reason to hope that, 1. Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe. 2. Those things of God which are despised and neglected, and thrown by as useless, shall be brought into reputation, shall be found to be of great service, and be brought into request; for divine revelation, however slighted for a time, shall be magnified and made honourable, and, above all, in the judgment of the great day, when the books shall be opened, and that book among the rest."
Some of us have come to realize the excitement that Matthew Henry anticipated for our times, but do we find a Berean spirited church running "to and fro" while digging "as for silver" and making "use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified" as Henry imagined?
Isaac Newton: "This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many." (Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)
Today almost the entirety of the prophet John's "whole world" carries the name of the Islamic beast, but the "church" can't see it because pop-eschatology necessarily excludes 1900 years of Christian era history from even being considered in bible prophecy, which includes 1400 years of THE false prophet Muhammad's cult's history. Yet we can see the present day reality with our own eyes. http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html
"Muslims are determined to impose their 'religion' all over Africa as well as in other continents and countries of the world. Islam has but one goal: rule the world at any cost!"
"And where are the International Human Rights Organizations?
Christians are burnt alive in Nigeria, a horrific Holocaust right in front of International indifference as denounced by Father Juan Carlos Martos on behalf of the Missionari Clarettiani via del Sacro Cuore di Maria, Rome, Italy." (link to article at United Copts)
Yet rather than recognize the treasure of an elder brother steeped in a lifetime of scripture in the genuine ecclesia, brother Skolfield has been met with scorn, false accusation, false characterization, and false witness by doctrinally blinded babes in Christ that exhibit milk still dribbling down their chins - if that.
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P
Partial preterists can't afford to recognize the everlasting covenant promises God made to the seed of Abraham, any more than they can afford to try to understand the physical matter of fact reality of the restoration of Jews to their land, as being of the Lord. Yet consider the fruit of the tree, of all those that refuse to believe, that the restoration of Jews to their/our land is of the Lord. In spite of Christians having anticipated it through bible prophecy, centuries before that restoration began to take place.
Matthew Henry: "If God will build Jerusalem for the people and their comfort, they must inhabit it for him and his glory. The promises and privileges with which God's people are blessed, should engage us to join them, whatever it costs us."
Thomas Brightman (1562-1607): "The restoring of the Jewes and their callinge to the faith of Christ after the utter overthrow of their three enemies is set forth in livelie colours." "Shall they return to Jerusalem again?" "There is nothing more certain: the prophets do everywhere confirm it and beat upon it."
In 1641, the British Puritan leader, Oliver Cromwell stated, "And it may be, as some think, God will bring the Jews home to their station, 'from all the isles of the sea,' and answer their expectations 'as from the depths of the sea.'
Isaac Newton: “Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high–mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”
Worse than that they are given over to Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism, to which Newton alluded, that Paul warned of. They act as though nobody before brother Ellis recognized that some Jews may remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel this day in spite of Romans 11.
Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "
Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel.html
Matthew Henry: "If God will build Jerusalem for the people and their comfort, they must inhabit it for him and his glory. The promises and privileges with which God's people are blessed, should engage us to join them, whatever it costs us."
Thomas Brightman (1562-1607): "The restoring of the Jewes and their callinge to the faith of Christ after the utter overthrow of their three enemies is set forth in livelie colours." "Shall they return to Jerusalem again?" "There is nothing more certain: the prophets do everywhere confirm it and beat upon it."
In 1641, the British Puritan leader, Oliver Cromwell stated, "And it may be, as some think, God will bring the Jews home to their station, 'from all the isles of the sea,' and answer their expectations 'as from the depths of the sea.'
Isaac Newton: “Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high–mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”
Worse than that they are given over to Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism, to which Newton alluded, that Paul warned of. They act as though nobody before brother Ellis recognized that some Jews may remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel this day in spite of Romans 11.
Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "
Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel.html
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M
It could be noted that while some may call themselves Christian, those who dont acknowledge and make efforts to stop their sin when it is revealed to them don't actually know Christ, or havent fully came to him, so therefore how could the Holy spirit truly or fully reside in them.
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Since this scripture is also true, then a person although believing in Christ may still have demonic influence, oppression or even possesion.
Even the demons "BELIEVE" in Christ since otherwise they would not tremble at Jesus name
It would be good to note the method Jesus went about casting out demons.
he commanded them first to leave, not filled them with the holy spirit first.
A demon doesn't want to leave once its found a home.
Notice the interaction between Legion and Christ in Mark Chpt 5... they begged for mercy then asked to be at least cast into pigs.
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs.
They didn't want to leave but had to be kicked out first for the man to be freed.
If they're not first kicked out, how does one know if they have left.
Why would Christ himself first kick them out instead of just filling such a person with the holy spirit if simply filling with the holy spirit could figuratively fill to purge any demon(s) out of the body.
The vessel must first be emptied of all impurities to be filled with the pure...as opposed to mixed with.
Since no one can enter a strong mans house without first tying him up
A demon must bind a person in some way to overcome and control a person
Christ also must then bind a demon to kick them out since he is the stronger one of both the man and any demon.
I also would agree with Therapon that since the avenues of sin which allowed any demon to influence a person in the first place must be recognized and conquered through Christ, so as not to allow any more powerful to return.
The house may be swept clean, but if afterward the holy spirit does not immediately reside in that house, who else is going to occupy it?
Were not saved through our own merits. So we can't suggest that it is only ourselves who are meant to reside within our being.
This is not to say that all people are possessed by one or the other of the holy spirit or a demon....yet
But there is a reason our bodies are created as a temple to allow one or the other to be our master since we cannot serve two masters.
If a demon is present The strong man must be bound and forced to leave first, before the stronger Holy spirit can occupy.
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Since this scripture is also true, then a person although believing in Christ may still have demonic influence, oppression or even possesion.
Even the demons "BELIEVE" in Christ since otherwise they would not tremble at Jesus name
It would be good to note the method Jesus went about casting out demons.
he commanded them first to leave, not filled them with the holy spirit first.
A demon doesn't want to leave once its found a home.
Notice the interaction between Legion and Christ in Mark Chpt 5... they begged for mercy then asked to be at least cast into pigs.
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs.
They didn't want to leave but had to be kicked out first for the man to be freed.
If they're not first kicked out, how does one know if they have left.
Why would Christ himself first kick them out instead of just filling such a person with the holy spirit if simply filling with the holy spirit could figuratively fill to purge any demon(s) out of the body.
The vessel must first be emptied of all impurities to be filled with the pure...as opposed to mixed with.
Since no one can enter a strong mans house without first tying him up
A demon must bind a person in some way to overcome and control a person
Christ also must then bind a demon to kick them out since he is the stronger one of both the man and any demon.
I also would agree with Therapon that since the avenues of sin which allowed any demon to influence a person in the first place must be recognized and conquered through Christ, so as not to allow any more powerful to return.
The house may be swept clean, but if afterward the holy spirit does not immediately reside in that house, who else is going to occupy it?
Were not saved through our own merits. So we can't suggest that it is only ourselves who are meant to reside within our being.
This is not to say that all people are possessed by one or the other of the holy spirit or a demon....yet
But there is a reason our bodies are created as a temple to allow one or the other to be our master since we cannot serve two masters.
If a demon is present The strong man must be bound and forced to leave first, before the stronger Holy spirit can occupy.
D
People like to say "So and So" has a great testimony as they went to the depths of sin and by God's grace found faith. I on the other hand think a great testimony is more like : "I was always with the Lord. I have served Him faithfully my whole life." You sir, are the latter case. You have a great testimony. Thank you for your many years of faithfully serving Jesus!
1
Hi Markum1972.
I asked this question..
Link-->http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61157-prayer-renunciation-11.html#post983799
To that question, you replied with..
Link-->http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61157-prayer-renunciation-11.html#post983926
Here are the scriptures concerning this.
Romans 2
[SUP]28[/SUP]For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;
Romans 4
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14[/SUP]For if those who are of the law areheirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, [SUP]15 [/SUP]because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Galatians 3
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
No it's not about genetics.