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That is what I believe the bible says. . .I don't believe we see scripture "face to face"! The Greek word here for perfect, zone, is not the same Greek word used in 2 Timothy 3:17. teleios is used in 1 Corinthians 13 meaning what has reached its end, term, or limit; hence, complete, perfect, full, wanting nothing, with special reference to the end for which it was intended. We will not be complete, perfect, full, wanting nothing until Jesus Christ returns. So, I have no problem believing I am in align with scripture.
seeing face to face isn't a face to face meeting between someone and someone (you and Jesus).
it's seeing something CLEARLY that was previously seen PARTIALLY - as in a glass (brushed metal mirror) darkly; or blurry; ill defined.
Paul isn't speaking of a WE.
he is speaking of a THING.
you can't possibly align with scripture - you hold to Bullingerism.
you could always quit that though.
thx
it's seeing something CLEARLY that was previously seen PARTIALLY - as in a glass (brushed metal mirror) darkly; or blurry; ill defined.
Paul isn't speaking of a WE.
he is speaking of a THING.
you can't possibly align with scripture - you hold to Bullingerism.
you could always quit that though.
thx
M
The gifts are still there! are you that blind? Our fellowship have the gifts every Sunday has it is written in the bible. You know, GOD IS REAL! and Jesus is still with us today? open your eyes people! and also seeking answers on a chat site? open your bible and seek the LORD and you will find whatever you're looking for.
P
I've been to the Lutheran church .. Met some very
nice people
As well as the catholic ..
Baptist
Pendacostal
Among others ... Some parts working in them but the body coming together as a "whole" .. Very very rare ..
do you find the whole body "everyone " working well at your church ? it excites me to think that it might ..
I guess what I mean is the church able to work with other denominational churches as a working group?
Or is it pretty much working within it's own denomination?
I'm
Just curious
nice people
As well as the catholic ..
Baptist
Pendacostal
Among others ... Some parts working in them but the body coming together as a "whole" .. Very very rare ..
do you find the whole body "everyone " working well at your church ? it excites me to think that it might ..
I guess what I mean is the church able to work with other denominational churches as a working group?
Or is it pretty much working within it's own denomination?
I'm
Just curious
read this, follow up would be my suggestion.
i've found though that people don't actually follow up for a couple of reasons, mainly they are afraid to be found in error....that would mean starting over.
i'll put some paragraph breaks in it.
i won't be covering this part again with ya.
.....
"The Greek word translated “perfect” is teleios. The term does not refer to “perfect” in the sense typically understood by the average modern English reader, i.e., to be sinless.
Following this faulty notion, some have concluded that the “perfect” refers to Jesus—since He has been the only perfect person. Other interpretations apply “perfect” to heaven (the only perfect place that will be free of sin and imperfection), or Christian maturity and perfect love (the perfect condition or quality).
But, in context, Paul was not contrasting qualities or places. He was contrasting quantities, i.e., those things that were incomplete and partial (miraculous gifts) with that which would be total and complete (the fully revealed Word of God).
The inaccuracy of these interpretations is seen further in the Greek definition of teleios. The word refers to totality, that which is whole, brought to its end, finished, and lacking nothing necessary to completeness (Delling, 1972, 8:73; Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 816; Thayer, 1901, p. 618).
When referring to persons, teleios refers to being full-grown, adult, and mature (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 817; Thayer, 1977, p. 618).
Used in its neuter form, Paul was referring to a thing—not a person—something that, when completed or finished, would replace the incomplete or partial, i.e., the miraculous gifts—which clearly had only temporary significance.
Commenting on the abolition of the miraculous gifts of prophecy and supernatural knowledge (mentioned in vss. 8 and 9), W.R. Nicoll observed that “these charisms are partial in scope, and therefore temporary: the fragmentary gives place to the complete” (1900, 2:900, emp. added).
Kenneth Wuest agreed: “In I Corinthians 13:10, the word means ‘complete,’ and is contrasted to that which is incomplete”
(1943a, pp. 117-118).
Whereas James used the term teleios to refer to the all-sufficiency of God’s Word in its ability to achieve everything it was intended to do (James 1:25), the exegete is forced to conclude that Paul’s use of “perfect” referred to the completed revelation or totally revealed New Testament Scriptures.
The revelation of God’s will was completed in its entirety when the final book of the New Testament, Revelation, was written by John prior to A.D. 100."
Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation--EXTENDED VERSION < click
i've found though that people don't actually follow up for a couple of reasons, mainly they are afraid to be found in error....that would mean starting over.
i'll put some paragraph breaks in it.
i won't be covering this part again with ya.
.....
"The Greek word translated “perfect” is teleios. The term does not refer to “perfect” in the sense typically understood by the average modern English reader, i.e., to be sinless.
Following this faulty notion, some have concluded that the “perfect” refers to Jesus—since He has been the only perfect person. Other interpretations apply “perfect” to heaven (the only perfect place that will be free of sin and imperfection), or Christian maturity and perfect love (the perfect condition or quality).
But, in context, Paul was not contrasting qualities or places. He was contrasting quantities, i.e., those things that were incomplete and partial (miraculous gifts) with that which would be total and complete (the fully revealed Word of God).
The inaccuracy of these interpretations is seen further in the Greek definition of teleios. The word refers to totality, that which is whole, brought to its end, finished, and lacking nothing necessary to completeness (Delling, 1972, 8:73; Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 816; Thayer, 1901, p. 618).
When referring to persons, teleios refers to being full-grown, adult, and mature (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 817; Thayer, 1977, p. 618).
Used in its neuter form, Paul was referring to a thing—not a person—something that, when completed or finished, would replace the incomplete or partial, i.e., the miraculous gifts—which clearly had only temporary significance.
Commenting on the abolition of the miraculous gifts of prophecy and supernatural knowledge (mentioned in vss. 8 and 9), W.R. Nicoll observed that “these charisms are partial in scope, and therefore temporary: the fragmentary gives place to the complete” (1900, 2:900, emp. added).
Kenneth Wuest agreed: “In I Corinthians 13:10, the word means ‘complete,’ and is contrasted to that which is incomplete”
(1943a, pp. 117-118).
Whereas James used the term teleios to refer to the all-sufficiency of God’s Word in its ability to achieve everything it was intended to do (James 1:25), the exegete is forced to conclude that Paul’s use of “perfect” referred to the completed revelation or totally revealed New Testament Scriptures.
The revelation of God’s will was completed in its entirety when the final book of the New Testament, Revelation, was written by John prior to A.D. 100."
Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation--EXTENDED VERSION < click
P
Not working for salvation .. What I'm referring to is beyond the salvation part
That's parts non negotiable ..
Thanks for Sharing zone , I'm just trying to get a feel for what's going on everywhere ..,
What's happening type thing ..
Really not trying to argue or anything
Thanks for your patience with me ..
That's parts non negotiable ..
Thanks for Sharing zone , I'm just trying to get a feel for what's going on everywhere ..,
What's happening type thing ..
Really not trying to argue or anything
Thanks for your patience with me ..
Not working for salvation .. What I'm referring to is beyond the salvation part
That's parts non negotiable ..
Thanks for Sharing zone , I'm just trying to get a feel for what's going on everywhere ..,
What's happening type thing ..
Really not trying to argue or anything
Thanks for your patience with me ..
That's parts non negotiable ..
Thanks for Sharing zone , I'm just trying to get a feel for what's going on everywhere ..,
What's happening type thing ..
Really not trying to argue or anything
Thanks for your patience with me ..
we know what the other denominations believe.
we do missions and outreach with all kinds of people, and other denominations - provided it doesn't require us to do anything which goes against our convictions - for example....activism for ordination of gays in ministry. no...we don't come together over things like that.
as for community service, individuals do that as they are led.
avenues for service are posted at the church.
our church exists for the SHEEP first.
for care and feeding of Christ's sheep.
i know that sounds opposed to what you may have been taught.
You know as well as I do that when someone gives an instance of any of these kinds of happenings as you have requested, it goes through an intense scrutiny that goes way beyond the testimony of two or three witnesses. For any of you to even consider believing that these things can and have happened, you would have to have to witnessed it with your own eyes, just like Thomas, 'Unless I see it I won't believe it' and that had to do with Christ being raised from the dead. There are many examples which are isolated but have happened none the less, but you won't believe it nor would any of you submit to it's veracity. If you ask me that is just as much unbelief and are others things that we do not perceive as truth with our own understanding. You would label them as cronies and phonies and not from God. That's the size of it.
why are they isolated?
Paul had a whole church operating.
if they continued, and we have a billion christians...wel....where are the NUMBERS?
anything...ONE REAL MIRACLE please!
i'll believe it, because i'll know it when i see it.
someone raised from the dead would be good.
or, people suddenly proclaiming the Gospel in languages (all at once) they never learned.
just post it!!
you can't....that's why.
so you toss it our way saying WE lack faith.
i'm afraid the opposite is true.
thx anyways.
i'll post prophets and tongues and signs and wonders...if there are any you think are genuine please let me know.
back later on that
Paul had a whole church operating.
if they continued, and we have a billion christians...wel....where are the NUMBERS?
anything...ONE REAL MIRACLE please!
i'll believe it, because i'll know it when i see it.
someone raised from the dead would be good.
or, people suddenly proclaiming the Gospel in languages (all at once) they never learned.
just post it!!
you can't....that's why.
so you toss it our way saying WE lack faith.
i'm afraid the opposite is true.
thx anyways.
i'll post prophets and tongues and signs and wonders...if there are any you think are genuine please let me know.
back later on that
J
I agree with you 100%. In John 10:37-38, Jesus is letting us know that gifts have a meaning and purpose. In the case of Jesus the gift of miracles from his Father was to prove to the people he was the awaited Messiah. I know the gifts are present and the Holy Spirit is forevert present. We are living in a time period for however long God chooses to display his gifts by the keeping of his commandments by his disciples. We are his supernatural hands to feed, clothe, and give medicine unto the sick. There will be a time for the supernatural presence of Jesus again and will be accomplished through his two witnesses for sure. The future church and the world will witness exactly what the world saw when Jesus walked this earth as a man. The church needs the gift of patience.