christian goth
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Man made rules are why people are falling out of church left and right!! And not to mention the more people I come across the more I hear " I used to be a Christian but I was judges for who I am how I dress and because I don't fit there standards" why ridicule for how we are what we dress like and how we talk? It's dumb not every Christian is gonna dress in kakies and a skirt!! If u want to be goth, rocker, punk, skater, whatever! God looks on the heart not how we dress. Our actions should show God on all we do no matter what we do.
God did not make us individuals, but persons - that's my belief. If you are to continue arguing with me at least quote me correctly, or try to understand what I say, rather than reducing my comments to what you want to debuke.
No church etiquette in the Bible, indeed, except maybe for the letter of Saint Paul to the Corinthians. Like I already said, from the words of Saint Paul "doesn't your common sense teach you...?", we can understand that early christians were not under specific written laws. Why? Because they didn't need it. Christians would freely obey to these unwritten laws (common sense), not out of fear, but out of love and of participation to the eucharistic communion. The life in the early church was flexible, dynamic and with a lot of spiritual freedom because all christians were brothers and sisters (with their own particularities, of course, but still, under the same Holy Spirit) and respected each other. They were persons, not individuals.
However, there have been abuses of this freedom that become harder and harder to handle and so, the clergy had to make a written law that would be the reference for every christian.
So, out of love and respect for the community of christians you are part of, you can cover your tattoo, take off your lip pierce and wash you black lipstick when you go to the church. That's also a way of humbling yourself, rather than imposing yourself agressively with a look that would draw atention even in the most relaxed bar.
And I am sorry that you take everything very personally. You did get very sentimental, because you developped a discourse that had nothing to do with what I said. And I did not mock you.
No church etiquette in the Bible, indeed, except maybe for the letter of Saint Paul to the Corinthians. Like I already said, from the words of Saint Paul "doesn't your common sense teach you...?", we can understand that early christians were not under specific written laws. Why? Because they didn't need it. Christians would freely obey to these unwritten laws (common sense), not out of fear, but out of love and of participation to the eucharistic communion. The life in the early church was flexible, dynamic and with a lot of spiritual freedom because all christians were brothers and sisters (with their own particularities, of course, but still, under the same Holy Spirit) and respected each other. They were persons, not individuals.
However, there have been abuses of this freedom that become harder and harder to handle and so, the clergy had to make a written law that would be the reference for every christian.
So, out of love and respect for the community of christians you are part of, you can cover your tattoo, take off your lip pierce and wash you black lipstick when you go to the church. That's also a way of humbling yourself, rather than imposing yourself agressively with a look that would draw atention even in the most relaxed bar.
And I am sorry that you take everything very personally. You did get very sentimental, because you developped a discourse that had nothing to do with what I said. And I did not mock you.
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Your strategy is coward, yet clever. You remind me of the gay activists that call every person that is against gay marriage a homophobe. It's un unfair strike (but also a very calculated one) that is used in order to mock the interlocutor (and you had the insolence to call me a mocker in another post).
Corporations shouldn't even get that kind of respect. Small business owners help build the world we live in. People should be able to relax and wear what is comfortable, have tattoos and piercings and be an individual. God didn't make us to be cookie cutter clones, so why should we try to conform to a specific image? Yes, there is a certain degree of cleaning up for a job interview. You can't expect to get hired with bad hygiene and thrashed clothes. But at the same time why should a pair of pants or a tattoo really affect how we see one another?
I agree.
I only gave that example in order to give an idea of what we do. People that are, - at least -, partially educated do agree that there is a way you dress according to a situation. So, for a job interview (not necessarily for a corporation) you want to make a good impression and look like a serious, grown-up person, but when it comes to church, you come with another standard (although there is a church etiquette also). If your boss told you to stop wearing a lip pierce at work, you would conform to that, but when a pastor tells you the same thing, you are ready to give up the church only to wear that lip pierce (that's what the opener said she would do, but it was about dragon tattoo, not a lip pierce). This is very sad. What if the early christians would have reacted the same way when Saint Paul scolded them?
Yes. Why try to conform to a specific image? The goth image, for example.
Each one of us is unique and irrepetable, with or whithout tattoos and pierceings. What if you lived in the 18th century? Would you have been incapable of expressing yourself, of demarcating yourself from the others, just because you had to dress more or less the same style of clothes? If someone takes away your tattoos and piercings ...you have nothing left...? I doubt it.
Some people think that it is enough to adopt an unconventional look (which is, paradoxally, very conventional since the rockers dress in a certain way and the rappers in a different way; so, you can actually distinguish the two groups based on their look) in order to show their unicity and originality.
Before I go on, I want to make clear that I do not talk about you personally when I use the pronoun "you", nor do I talk about particular persons from this forum; I only talk in general.
I will have to dissapoint the persons that believe that their personality and originality lies in the way they look; the persons that believe they are original just because (unlike a regular, normal person) they have tattoos, piercings, weird (but trendy) haircuts etc. Of course, that doesn't mean that a tattooed person can't be original. That only means that if a tattooed person is original, is because of anything, but the tattoos.
I do not claim to have figured out what exactly is that make some people to wish to create themselves an identity. I suspect that this desire comes out of a complex of inferiority, lack of confidence and ...very probable, lack of originality. I believe that if someone feels the need to add something to his exterior appearence (especially something exagerated) is because, maybe, he tries to compensate something that he lacks in the inside.
I believe that when the idea of a small group (the hippies, for example) is being taken and adopted by the masses, that same idea loses its substance and essence. What the crowd takes is the form of the idea, not the essence. The same goes with the subcultures.
That's my opinion, please, don't get upset and don't feel attacked or something.
Why not the same cleaning up for the church?
You are right. The tattoo or a certain pair of pants shouldn't affect how we see one another. People in church shouldn't be disturbed by the way another one dresses. But, at the same time, we shouldn't dress in a way that draws attention. We are to be modest and humble. If we do not have (yet) these qualities, let's try at least to obey the rules of the good manners that we all (hopefully) know. We do not end up in church by accident (at least most of us do not); we know from the very beginning that we go to church and not to a bar or to a party. So, when we go to the church, we dress appropriately.
I only gave that example in order to give an idea of what we do. People that are, - at least -, partially educated do agree that there is a way you dress according to a situation. So, for a job interview (not necessarily for a corporation) you want to make a good impression and look like a serious, grown-up person, but when it comes to church, you come with another standard (although there is a church etiquette also). If your boss told you to stop wearing a lip pierce at work, you would conform to that, but when a pastor tells you the same thing, you are ready to give up the church only to wear that lip pierce (that's what the opener said she would do, but it was about dragon tattoo, not a lip pierce). This is very sad. What if the early christians would have reacted the same way when Saint Paul scolded them?
Yes. Why try to conform to a specific image? The goth image, for example.
Each one of us is unique and irrepetable, with or whithout tattoos and pierceings. What if you lived in the 18th century? Would you have been incapable of expressing yourself, of demarcating yourself from the others, just because you had to dress more or less the same style of clothes? If someone takes away your tattoos and piercings ...you have nothing left...? I doubt it.
Some people think that it is enough to adopt an unconventional look (which is, paradoxally, very conventional since the rockers dress in a certain way and the rappers in a different way; so, you can actually distinguish the two groups based on their look) in order to show their unicity and originality.
Before I go on, I want to make clear that I do not talk about you personally when I use the pronoun "you", nor do I talk about particular persons from this forum; I only talk in general.
I will have to dissapoint the persons that believe that their personality and originality lies in the way they look; the persons that believe they are original just because (unlike a regular, normal person) they have tattoos, piercings, weird (but trendy) haircuts etc. Of course, that doesn't mean that a tattooed person can't be original. That only means that if a tattooed person is original, is because of anything, but the tattoos.
I do not claim to have figured out what exactly is that make some people to wish to create themselves an identity. I suspect that this desire comes out of a complex of inferiority, lack of confidence and ...very probable, lack of originality. I believe that if someone feels the need to add something to his exterior appearence (especially something exagerated) is because, maybe, he tries to compensate something that he lacks in the inside.
I believe that when the idea of a small group (the hippies, for example) is being taken and adopted by the masses, that same idea loses its substance and essence. What the crowd takes is the form of the idea, not the essence. The same goes with the subcultures.
That's my opinion, please, don't get upset and don't feel attacked or something.
Why not the same cleaning up for the church?
You are right. The tattoo or a certain pair of pants shouldn't affect how we see one another. People in church shouldn't be disturbed by the way another one dresses. But, at the same time, we shouldn't dress in a way that draws attention. We are to be modest and humble. If we do not have (yet) these qualities, let's try at least to obey the rules of the good manners that we all (hopefully) know. We do not end up in church by accident (at least most of us do not); we know from the very beginning that we go to church and not to a bar or to a party. So, when we go to the church, we dress appropriately.
I agree? Why not just wear what is comfortable and have to follow a specific "style?" I mean really, who says what is what anyway?
I think it really depends on the church too. My old church I would show up in jeans and a t-shirt or tripp pants and a t-shirt or whatever. People came as themselves and not as some spiffed up image of themselves. It's like with dating for example: you set the bar high and put all this time into your appearance to impress someone. Why? It isn't the normal, everyday person you are. Churches are not for the perfect, but hospitals for the broken, sanctuaries for those who need a break from the storms in life. So why does everyone insist on grabbing a suit to wear and then judging those who aren't doing the same?
I think it really depends on the church too. My old church I would show up in jeans and a t-shirt or tripp pants and a t-shirt or whatever. People came as themselves and not as some spiffed up image of themselves. It's like with dating for example: you set the bar high and put all this time into your appearance to impress someone. Why? It isn't the normal, everyday person you are. Churches are not for the perfect, but hospitals for the broken, sanctuaries for those who need a break from the storms in life. So why does everyone insist on grabbing a suit to wear and then judging those who aren't doing the same?
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am i a Christian goth?
who knows; what 'goth' means today isn't what it meant 20 years ago when i was in high school, and it isn't what it meant 1500 years ago when Germanic tribes fought Rome over Europe!
as it happens, i find dark clothing and shiny bits of metal attractive; i'm saddened over the state of the world; i used to listen to secular bands like Siouxie & the Banshees, Bauhaus, etc. and now also find joy & edification in Christian bands like Leper, Ashengrace, Metus, etc. that play a style of music called 'goth' or 'darkwave.'
Solomon was probably 'goth' if my working definition is right:
It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting:
for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.
Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.
The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
(Ecclesiastes 7:2-4)
i only hope i could have a fraction of the wisdom he was given.
who knows; what 'goth' means today isn't what it meant 20 years ago when i was in high school, and it isn't what it meant 1500 years ago when Germanic tribes fought Rome over Europe!
as it happens, i find dark clothing and shiny bits of metal attractive; i'm saddened over the state of the world; i used to listen to secular bands like Siouxie & the Banshees, Bauhaus, etc. and now also find joy & edification in Christian bands like Leper, Ashengrace, Metus, etc. that play a style of music called 'goth' or 'darkwave.'
Solomon was probably 'goth' if my working definition is right:
It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting:
for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.
Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.
The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
(Ecclesiastes 7:2-4)
i only hope i could have a fraction of the wisdom he was given.
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I once worked with a guy who was dating a girl from a christian family, while they were still together they decided to go back to church but it didnt last long because the church didnt accept them saying she should where dresses and not pants/jeans, no make up and no ear piercings. They left and didnt attend another church because of their falsified judgements. This is a clear example of not understanding the scriptures..If you focus on peoples heart, you stop focusing on their external appearance and even if what they are doing is not quite right in regards to appearance, stop fighting and let people grow! If you judge and condemn people, you have a lot more serious issues to deal with yourself!
The clergy shouldn't have denied attendance to church to those christians...
However, the fact that someone stops going to church because wearing a dress represents such a big compromise can also point to a pride that is bigger than the thirst for Jesus Christ. We must reduce our egos in order to make room for God. A small step in denying ourselves is obedience.
However, the fact that someone stops going to church because wearing a dress represents such a big compromise can also point to a pride that is bigger than the thirst for Jesus Christ. We must reduce our egos in order to make room for God. A small step in denying ourselves is obedience.
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