Should people who don’t live in that country, have an opinion on that country’s problem?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
11,168
4,029
113
#21
huh wouldnt it be funny if you could only vote for the leader of the country ONLY if you had been a former leader of it yourself.

of course what would end up happening?

experince is a good thing though often say if its an issue pertaining to women maybe you dont necessarily want a mans opinion! cos you already know what a man might say.

This is why there is a womans only forum I supoose.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
11,168
4,029
113
#22
immgrigation can happen anywhere not just in texas. and other places also have problems with it.
 
Aug 16, 2020
540
362
63
26
#23
huh wouldnt it be funny if you could only vote for the leader of the country ONLY if you had been a former leader of it yourself.

of course what would end up happening?

experince is a good thing though often say if its an issue pertaining to women maybe you dont necessarily want a mans opinion! cos you already know what a man might say.

This is why there is a womans only forum I supoose.
I don’t mind hearing a man’s opinion, I think all opinions should be heard, regardless of anything. Yes sometimes groups don’t really have opinions, like men having an opinion on periods, like they just don’t know, only from seeing other women go through the pain could they try to form some kind of opinion, but that’s honestly it.

The same honestly can be directed at women, there are many men only health issues, that we wouldn’t know what to say.

That’s why the subject of the opinion matters, for the world is so vast and diverse, man I have an opinion that I don’t like my food touching each other my plate, and I’ve met others who don’t care. It’s all about context, I think it really matters, especially for opinions.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
11,168
4,029
113
#25
oh yes
sorry I was just echoing it.

I mean to say that if you want someones specific opinion from someone who lives there and experienced it then you need to ask for it. Like dont go on a forum asking maybe talk to actual immigration officers, immigrants themselves or do a texan survey or something.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
11,168
4,029
113
#26
i mean you could read the texan newspapers but you are only getting a reporters view. Though journalists are meant to be kinda impartial and objective, a lot of journalism doesnt really do much investigating into the problems. Dont rely solely on press releases.

I did research methods at university, and for that would probably need to do a sizable survey (this is why theres so many opinion polls around election time) but as you know it does take time to fill out a survey and collate all the data and you only getting a snapshot of peoples gut feelings.
 
Aug 16, 2020
540
362
63
26
#27
oh yes
sorry I was just echoing it.

I mean to say that if you want someones specific opinion from someone who lives there and experienced it then you need to ask for it. Like dont go on a forum asking maybe talk to actual immigration officers, immigrants themselves or do a texan survey or something.
Sorry, that is a problem with online talking, you can’t tell someone’s voice tone. That’s why sometimes I’ll end sentences saying that I’m sarcastic, for example:

“I JUST love 100 degree Texas weather!” (Sarcasm)

Yeah though I agree on what you said, we are just ordinary people on here, maybe someone has actually had to deal with with those jobs, but it seems highly unlikely. I think sometimes people get so into hating government opinions, that they sometimes forget they are people/forget about the opinions of the common folk. I think opinions of the common folk can be important too. But sometimes those opinions are not well researched, like with looking up facts to back up their opinion. It’s all really intense and complicated stuff really, deep stuff, lol
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,095
1,425
113
#28
Did Abraham Lincoln need to experience slavery to know it was wrong?
Are we talking about the same thing? Lincoln shared his opinions on it, after having seen and/or experienced slavery, with people in his own country. He didn't dabble in the affairs of other countries without ever actually seeing what's going on there.

Besides a lot of the information people are getting these days is propagandized and biased. If you watch conservative or liberal news then you're getting a perspective from two entirely different polar opposite worlds.

Speaking of two different worlds, the world of the 1800s was wayyyy different than today. People actually thought slavery was ok to some extent. It isn't a given Abraham would be against it, but fortunately he was.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,482
3,170
113
#29
Are we talking about the same thing? Lincoln shared his opinions on it, after having seen and/or experienced slavery, with people in his own country. He didn't dabble in the affairs of other countries without ever actually seeing what's going on there.

Besides a lot of the information people are getting these days is propagandized and biased. If you watch conservative or liberal news then you're getting a perspective from two entirely different polar opposite worlds.

Speaking of two different worlds, the world of the 1800s was wayyyy different than today. People actually thought slavery was ok to some extent. It isn't a given Abraham would be against it, but fortunately he was.
Lincoln shared his opinions on it, after having seen and/or experienced slavery,
So Lincoln experienced being a slave? Seeing a woman dealing with rape will never be the same as experiencing it. But you still know it is wrong without needing to experience it.

After Uncle Tom's Cabin was published it gave people the worst cases of individuals who endured slavery. Many who had never seen the reality now had the image of it. It caused a great uproar for people who had never experienced it.

Biblically we may never experience some of the immoral sins that the Bible highlights but we are still to speak against them.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,095
1,425
113
#30
So Lincoln experienced being a slave? Seeing a woman dealing with rape will never be the same as experiencing it. But you still know it is wrong without needing to experience it.

After Uncle Tom's Cabin was published it gave people the worst cases of individuals who endured slavery. Many who had never seen the reality now had the image of it. It caused a great uproar for people who had never experienced it.

Biblically we may never experience some of the immoral sins that the Bible highlights but we are still to speak against them.
I'm not really disagreeing with that because God is eternal and does not change. What God condemns is therefore objectively wrong as a matter of fact and not open to opinion, like you said about rape and slavery.

I'm more talking about gray area things like immigration, which political party is right or wrong, if gun control is good, if physical distancing is more important than the 1st amendment right of peaceful gatherings such as in a church. I can see where I should have been more clearer on my points...But thanks for sharing! I do like your posts.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,482
3,170
113
#31
I'm not really disagreeing with that because God is eternal and does not change. What God condemns is therefore objectively wrong as a matter of fact and not open to opinion, like you said about rape and slavery.

I'm more talking about gray area things like immigration, which political party is right or wrong, if gun control is good, if physical distancing is more important than the 1st amendment right of peaceful gatherings such as in a church. I can see where I should have been more clearer on my points...But thanks for sharing! I do like your posts.
Are they grey? The Bible has a lot to say about Immigration either directly or indirectly. Same for self-defense. People can still social distance and gather at church. Also, remember the early church met illegally due to the Roman persecution.

No problem I was simply picking your brain to bring out other thoughts on the matter that may shed light on a different perspective.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
11,168
4,029
113
#32
interesting that people are mentioning slavery as because we now in the 21st century are at a remove from it, but through literature like Uncle Tom's Cabin, or 12 years a slave, written at the time, both honest accounts and fictional narrative, we can read it and form our own opinions. Plus a lengthy book on the topic or story might do more to open our minds than one or two biased news article. (some people dont bother to read the news, or just watch it on tv, or only look at headlines)

Im sorry to say I dont know that much first hand of the problems Texas has with immigration, but I have on my bookshelf some books about it that I am going to read because Im actually interested in the topic, as immigration has been such a thing in my country (most of the people that live in my city are immigrants, or second or third generation immigrants) I would count myself as a native born from a second generation immigrant on my dads side and first on my mothers.
many of my friends and neighbours home countries are overseas. I taught english as a second langauage and I was one of only two native speakers. English, I count as my native tongue.

so there are two books The line that becomes a river by Francisco Cantu
and The distance between us A memoir by Reyna Grande

from. what I know of america, it was originally New York and San Francisco that were the points of entry for most immigrants but Houston was never intitally set up as an entry or processing point for immigrants. Migrant workers often would go for seasonal work but Im not sure what processes are in place to vet people or what kind of visas are required, or how bureucratic that system is.

in nz, I can tell you the immigration schemes have changed and now theres a point system and it seems you need quite a bit of money to invest here if you want to live here. But we have never really had the problem of people just swimming over to nz and nobody noticing lol. but there are always people that complain about immigrants even when its legal.

australia had more of a problem, but I can tell you that some people are willing to risk their lives and swim or go on a boat through shark infested waters for a new life. I mean these immigrants that do make it are prepared to work and work hard to earn their way once they are here. it makes no sense to come to a new country and NOT be prepared to work or study, its not like a holiday or a piece of cake. Like Ruth, many would glean fields if they had to. but you know people are human, and people get sick or have illnesses and have babies just the same as everyone else, they are not robots or cash machines.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,095
1,425
113
#33
Are they grey? The Bible has a lot to say about Immigration either directly or indirectly. Same for self-defense. People can still social distance and gather at church. Also, remember the early church met illegally due to the Roman persecution.

No problem I was simply picking your brain to bring out other thoughts on the matter that may shed light on a different perspective.
I think they are grey.

Immigration may be mentioned in the Bible, but the only exodus of people from one land to another that was part of a promise from God was to the Jews. Otherwise there are no Biblical examples of people being required to immigrate as a matter law from God. There is certainly no command for Christians to follow either. So that doesn't apply to somewhere like the US and Mexico for example.

There's a case to make for self-defense in the Bible and I agree with it, but there's just as much of a case to make for pacifism. It's a matter of conscience and wisdom to know when self-defense should be applied, to what extent, or if it should be applied at all.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,482
3,170
113
#35
I think they are grey.

Immigration may be mentioned in the Bible, but the only exodus of people from one land to another that was part of a promise from God was to the Jews. Otherwise there are no Biblical examples of people being required to immigrate as a matter law from God. There is certainly no command for Christians to follow either. So that doesn't apply to somewhere like the US and Mexico for example.

There's a case to make for self-defense in the Bible and I agree with it, but there's just as much of a case to make for pacifism. It's a matter of conscience and wisdom to know when self-defense should be applied, to what extent, or if it should be applied at all.
Oh sure people have argued against every belief imaginable trying to use scripture. I simply believe from study and the sum of all of scripture, God leaves us enough to never have grey areas. After all God is suppose to be our ultimate authority.

The Bible has a good bit to mention on immigration: https://capmin.org/bible-says-illegal-immigration-problem/

As for the right of self defense ill pull my previous reply out out of a previous thread I created talking about C. S. Lewis's article on why he wasn't a pacifist.

"Roughsoul1991, post: 4023325, Self defense or the sanctity of life is a natural law just as evident and observant as the moral law.

Natures laws come from God.

Therefore the right to self defense or the protection of the sanctity of life is good within morality and each of those laws comes from God.

What subject more than life is more important to protect?

Otherwise we have no need for laws.

Otherwise abortion shouldn't be legislated.

Otherwise the murderer shouldn't be put to death.

No need for Police either who the lawbreaker is their enemy.

No need for military who battles foreign and domestic enemies.

Laws legislate morality. And morality dictates what we should and shouldn't do on the concept of life.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Exodus 22:2-3
2 “If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed.

(This verse above is where the Castle doctrine or 2nd Amendment found roots in.)

Luke 11:21
21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.

Romans 7:12
So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

1 Timothy 1:8
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

2 Timothy 3:26
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Luke 22:36
36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Greek word for English sword:

3162. machaira
properly, a slaughter-knife; a short sword or dagger mainly used for stabbing; (figuratively) an instrument for exacting retribution.


Retribution- requital according to merits or deserts, especially for evil.

Nehemiah 4:10-14
10 Meanwhile, the people in Judah said, “The strength of the laborers is giving out, and there is so much rubble that we cannot rebuild the wall.”

11 Also our enemies said, “Before they know it or see us, we will be right there among them and will kill them and put an end to the work.”

12 Then the Jews who lived near them came and told us ten times over, “Wherever you turn, they will attack us.”

13 Therefore I stationed some of the people behind the lowest points of the wall at the exposed places, posting them by families, with their swords, spears and bows. 14 After I looked things over, I stood up and said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your families, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.”

Who gave this command to self defend your family and homes? God or Nehemiah? Was it wrong for Nehemiah to issue this command while doing the work of the Lord?

John 18:37
36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Jesus is making a distinction of two worlds. Heavenly and Earth. Jesus said if his Kingdom was of this world, his servants would fight to protect him.

Jesus shows us that it is never right to fight for the sake of his spiritual kingdom, but that it is right to fight on behalf of earthly kingdoms (when necessary to counter evil and destruction).

Ecclesiastes 3:1-11
A Time for Everything
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.


9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time.

https://freedomoutpost.com/black-ro...-a-time-to-fight-and-now-is-the-time-to-fight

Everything beautiful in it's time including the time of war. Does anything within time take God by surprise? Or does God use everything to still bring about His will?

So if the Law is good, holy, righteous, and all of scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Then everything listed above is good, holy, righteous and good to learn and train from in order to promote righteousness.

Also self defense against evil tyrannical governments is also well explained in John Locke's book called Two Treaties ( scripture is referenced more than 1500 times)

Examples of leaders raised up against tyrannical governments. Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jepthah, Samson, and Deborah who was praised for their actions in Hebrews 11 Heroes of faith.

Also we have to remember God ordained boundaries for the individual, the family, the church and Government. For example Romans 13 doesn't give permission to the individual, family, or church to be the police or military but only Government. Government has this authority where as God commands the individual and church to take care of the poor. Taking care of the poor wasn't Governments responsibility.

Final words:
Keep in mind this subject I am speaking very broadly and any situation dealing with violence must be well thought through because as a Christian love is the greatest commandment, revenge is wrong, anger is wrong, murder is wrong, to act unjustly is wrong, we are to strive to be the peacemakers. I may speak on this subject as so matter of fact but due the higher calling of the Christian it often falls into the right to conscience for the believer. If the believer feels he is justified then so he is but if he doesn't then he isnt by the sin, lack of faith. "
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,482
3,170
113
#36
interesting that people are mentioning slavery as because we now in the 21st century are at a remove from it, but through literature like Uncle Tom's Cabin, or 12 years a slave, written at the time, both honest accounts and fictional narrative, we can read it and form our own opinions. Plus a lengthy book on the topic or story might do more to open our minds than one or two biased news article. (some people dont bother to read the news, or just watch it on tv, or only look at headlines)

Im sorry to say I dont know that much first hand of the problems Texas has with immigration, but I have on my bookshelf some books about it that I am going to read because Im actually interested in the topic, as immigration has been such a thing in my country (most of the people that live in my city are immigrants, or second or third generation immigrants) I would count myself as a native born from a second generation immigrant on my dads side and first on my mothers.
many of my friends and neighbours home countries are overseas. I taught english as a second langauage and I was one of only two native speakers. English, I count as my native tongue.

so there are two books The line that becomes a river by Francisco Cantu
and The distance between us A memoir by Reyna Grande

from. what I know of america, it was originally New York and San Francisco that were the points of entry for most immigrants but Houston was never intitally set up as an entry or processing point for immigrants. Migrant workers often would go for seasonal work but Im not sure what processes are in place to vet people or what kind of visas are required, or how bureucratic that system is.

in nz, I can tell you the immigration schemes have changed and now theres a point system and it seems you need quite a bit of money to invest here if you want to live here. But we have never really had the problem of people just swimming over to nz and nobody noticing lol. but there are always people that complain about immigrants even when its legal.

australia had more of a problem, but I can tell you that some people are willing to risk their lives and swim or go on a boat through shark infested waters for a new life. I mean these immigrants that do make it are prepared to work and work hard to earn their way once they are here. it makes no sense to come to a new country and NOT be prepared to work or study, its not like a holiday or a piece of cake. Like Ruth, many would glean fields if they had to. but you know people are human, and people get sick or have illnesses and have babies just the same as everyone else, they are not robots or cash machines.
Slavery has only shifted. Sex trafficking involving children and women has only gotten worse. I would also call welfare a form of slavery if the individual must depend on government to live. Trapped by failed government systems.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,095
1,425
113
#37
actual immigration is one thing, but entering illegally and eating off 'the fat of the land' is quite another

what do you consider gray?
Immigration is a grey area to me because there are good reasons to be pro and anti immigration. There is no singular reason why immigration is always good without exception.

So I think there is a balance with immigration like there is with self-defense. One cannot always be pro-self-defense in all scebarios like the Hulk is who at the slightest offense goes Hulk Smash! We should have measured responses and sometimes no response at all. Pro-self defense toward all things is actually just reckless. See what I mean.

There is a balance with which political ideology is right if multiple parties bring good ideas to the table.

So that's what my thinking is like if that makes any sense.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,560
4,787
113
#38
In the Bible people immigrated as soon as there were separated countries. For the longest time, a person was a citizen of where ever he traveled.

Israel was a bit different. A person could only be a citizen if he became aan Israelite by faith.

There are many examples of people living in countries not of their own birth.

Check it out for yourself. It is interesting.
 

Socreta93

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,095
254
83
#39
If they are well informed, not ignorant and actually offers up helpful information then I have no problem.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
1,775
1,087
113
#40
I don’t mind hearing a man’s opinion, I think all opinions should be heard, regardless of anything. Yes sometimes groups don’t really have opinions, like men having an opinion on periods, like they just don’t know, only from seeing other women go through the pain could they try to form some kind of opinion, but that’s honestly it.

The same honestly can be directed at women, there are many men only health issues, that we wouldn’t know what to say.

That’s why the subject of the opinion matters, for the world is so vast and diverse, man I have an opinion that I don’t like my food touching each other my plate, and I’ve met others who don’t care. It’s all about context, I think it really matters, especially for opinions.
I disagree with this a little. There are male gynecologists, who are able to offer medical advice (opinion) which is not based on personal experience. Likewise, mothers make a decision to circumcise (or not) baby boys, despite not having firsthand experience of the procedure. The bible also touches on many subjects, and one may use God's precedents as a means to better understand the best outcome for a circumstance.

The question should be about the validity of information the opined one is using, not about what personal experience he or she has had.