What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say any that don't involve loving God with your whole heart and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Eye for an eye thing and all that other stuff like it is long gone.

Ten Commandments is still good, though cause it's all about loving God and loving others. So they should be kept, well in my opinion anyhow.

Something keep bugging me about my reply. So after looking once more, I understand what it was. How can I ask anyone to answer a straight forward question, when I failed to do so my self. One thing that you are over looking is that in Mat 5:17-18, the law is inter twined with the prophetess. This should lead one to the understand that until all prophecy is fulfilled, both stand.


[QOUTE=]So The Lord either fulfilled ALL of the law or every jot and tittle still stands. The Lord didn't leave any middle ground for you to pick and choose which laws you like best and which you think you can get rid of.

So, while you are condemning people with parts of the law, the whole law stands in condemnation of you.[/QOUTE]
As I have not condemned anyone with my question, it would seem that it had struck home with you. As to the condeming anyone, it does so with all man kind. You Me and every person reding any post or doing there best to walk in as Yeshua walks.

[QOUTE=]If a Christian were trying to justify their homosexuality I would let them know that NO, its not ok. I'm not God though, so I don't know what His Plan is behind that persons struggle. Is it deliverance in order to be a witness to others with that same struggle? That would be my guess...[/QOUTE]
When one rides the fence to answer a yes or no qeustion, it leaves one to wonder why. As for me, I will not do so. If a person lives their life as a gay man or women, they are not walking a life that shows love to HaShem. Nor can their life be a witniess to anything other than sin. Yet to say all law has been has been fulfiled, and no longer holds conviction over man, one must also follow that with the idea that sin in any form no longer counts as sin. As noted by the following coment of yours.

[QOUTE=]But on the same note I know that some part of the law condemns me as well so I would be a hypocrite to say YOU are a sinner and need to stop sinning NOW.

All I can give as a solution is EVERYONE must come to Christ. Christ helps to "fix" us. The law does not.{/QOUTE]
As we all should know (or I hope anyway) Holy works are never found where their is no faith. Yet as can be seen in some people, faith can be seen where there is no Holy Works. This is why Paul told us faith without works is dead. The sad idea that salvation came from works at any point in time is so wrong. Noah must have had faith, or he would never have heard HaShem, much less built the Ark. Abram had faith, or he would never steeped out in faith that HaShem would keep His word. The whold of the Word shows time after time that it was faith not works that led to salvation. To say or claim less is nothing more than the blind hopeing to lead the blind.
On that note, I have one more question for you. If the Law is doing the work it was intender to do, in yours, and my life, how can it then called dead? Or removed if you like that phrase better.


[QOUTE=]Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Uh-oh...

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


So what is the solution? Keep beating people with the whip of condemnation? Nope. That way doesn't work.

Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[/QUOTE]
One is also forcd to consider the following. It is true that man no long must under the condemnation of the Law, yet the law remains the standerd by which you seek out sin in our lives. Yes we all sin, and come up short, only a fool would try to claim otherwise. This is why Yeshua freely gave His life for our redemption.
Though some may say I pick and chose the laws I want to follow, that is also wrong. Years of study has gone into this topic, and the Bible tells us clearly what laws we must follow. As I have made, (or tried to make) clear how the laws are placed on one peoples, or group with in a peoples. Some Laws are ONLY for the temple service. As there is no temple, they would by defalt no long apply to the Temple priest. As there is no Alter, sacrifices can't be given, and so they also by delfault no longer apply. Yet we must keep in mind that HaShem Him-Self told us He no longer wanted our sacrifices. PLease read Jer.7:22, and Hos 6:6. There are others they are simply not coming to mind off hand.
To close, if the laws had been removed, then why are we told the following?
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

One is also forcd to consider the following. It is true that man no long must under the condemnation of the Law, yet the law remains the standerd by which you seek out sin in our lives. Yes we all sin, and come up short, only a fool would try to claim otherwise. This is why Yeshua freely gave His life for our redemption.
Though some may say I pick and chose the laws I want to follow, that is also wrong. Years of study has gone into this topic, and the Bible tells us clearly what laws we must follow. As I have made, (or tried to make) clear how the laws are placed on one peoples, or group with in a peoples. Some Laws are ONLY for the temple service. As there is no temple, they would by defalt no long apply to the Temple priest. As there is no Alter, sacrifices can't be given, and so they also by delfault no longer apply. Yet we must keep in mind that HaShem Him-Self told us He no longer wanted our sacrifices. PLease read Jer.7:22, and Hos 6:6. There are others they are simply not coming to mind off hand.
To close, if the laws had been removed, then why are we told the following?
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/QUOTE]
You won't be swayed by anything I show you.

2 Corinthians 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

There is a vail over the hearts and minds of those who follow after the law. It is not until that person comes to Christ to receive Rest from their work at the law that the vail is taken away.

It is extremely obvious who is who. Who is whom? Whom is whom? You know what I'm saying...

All the studying in the world isn't going to lift the vail...

You won't be swayed by anything I show you.

2 Corinthians 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

There is a vail over the hearts and minds of those who follow after the law. It is not until that person comes to Christ to receive Rest from their work at the law that the vail is taken away.

It is extremely obvious who is who. Who is whom? Whom is whom? You know what I'm saying...

All the studying in the world isn't going to lift the vail...[/QUOTE]

A person keeps the laws of HaShem, not be saved, rather because they are saved.

A person keeps the laws of HaShem, not be saved, rather because they are saved.

That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. But I bet it makes perfect sense to someone who has not received Rest from Christ.

Someone who still has the vail over their heart and whose mind is blinded when Moses is read (the law).

Like I said, I don't think you will be swayed by anything I show you. Its the Holy Spirit that must convince you. All I can try to do is point you away from your own "wisdom" and toward Christ.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

How can Gal 3:10 and Rom 8:1-2 be true simultaneously? In your theology? They can't. A saved person is not under the curse. Because they DON'T work at the law. They have received Rest in Christ. By Faith.

Romans 7:12-14, “So that the Law truly is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good. Therefore, has that which is good become death to me? Let it not be! But the sin, that sin might be manifest, was working death in me through what is good, so that sin through the command might become an exceedingly great sinner. For we know that the Law is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin."

2 Corinthians 3:7-8, “But if the administering of death in letters, engraved on stones, was esteemed, so that the children of Yisra’yl were unable to look steadily at the face of Mosheh because of the esteem of his face, which was passing away, how much more esteemed shall the administering of the Spirit not be?”

Whatever is not of FAITH is sin.

The Law is NOT of faith.

IF a person starts to follow and walk in the Law, THEY ARE DECEIVED. They still need to come to Christ.

That is what the law is FOR. To bring people to Christ. AFTER a person comes to Christ they are no longer under the law.

A Saved person does not remain in sin because they have faith in Christ. Not because of their work at the law.

DO you know what Righteousness before God is?

We are Righteous to God because of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Work. We are not righteous before God based on our strength or understanding of law.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Are you wondering what the yoke of bondage is? Do you mistakenly think you already know?

Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I can keep showing this with even more scripture.

If one stands in Righteousness, they satnd as with out sin. The reason I say AS is that all man kind sins. Yes that means me, you, and all of man kind. As for if I am deceived, as I said that is for HaShem to say not man. Your judgment of me means little, I know where I stand with HaShem.

Just as Israel was in bondage in Egypt, ( a symbol of sin) man kind is bondage to sin. So what is sin, I point you ince more to 1John 3:4.
I also wish to point out that your atempt at belittlement doesn't bother me. I will with hold that thoughts it places in my mind, as there is no need for to drop that leavle in any debate.

Galatians 4:21-26

Click to expand...

Lets look at this passage from different translation.
21 Tell me, you who want to be in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism, don't you hear what the Torah itself says?
22 It says that Avraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman.
23 The one by the slave woman was born according to the limited capabilities of human beings, but the one by the free woman was born through the miracle-working power of God fulfilling his promise. 24 Now, to make a midrash on these things: the two women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children for slavery - this is Hagar.
25 Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Yerushalayim, for she serves as a slave along with her children.
26 But the Yerushalayim above is free, and she is our mother;
I am sure that you post passage after after passage. Just as I am sure that I can post just as many that show my side of this. The thing is, I know that I can give an understand to any passage that you might post, that stands in contrast with what you may think. I also know that I can back my understanding of scripture, with scripture. Just as I know that if you would give a yes or no answer to any quetion I ask, it would show that you do follow the Law. Care to test that?

Once more, no law is tossed out…...hear Jesus. Many are fulfilled and the rest are being fulfilled not only by the Head of the Body but also by the Members of His Body yet in this age.

Romans 2:26-29
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Unless your question was 'do you rest every Saturday from your work as the law says' I think all your answers will be just as you suppose.

Romans 3:28-31
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Did Jesus come to do away with the Old Testament writings?


Matthew 4 and verse 4, “But he answered and said, It is written ….”
Now here’s Jesus talking and He’s quoting the Old Testament of all things!
Quoting the Old Testament. And He says, “It is written, Man shall not live
by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”

There was no Word of God except for the Old Testament, as far as the written word.
And here He’s quoting that. And He’s saying, Look, you had better live by every word
that has come from God. Every word. Talking specifically here about the Old Testament.

The Apostle Paul writing to a younger minister, Timothy. 2 Timothy 3:15
“And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures ….” From a child,
Timothy had known the holy scriptures, the Old Testament. “Which are able
to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

Something that can make you wise unto salvation.
-

“The Old Testament was done away at the cross by Christ’s death.”
This is what most teach.

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable”—all of it is profitable.
For what? “[F]or doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

Well that sounds pretty important towards salvation: instruction in righteousness, correction,
right doctrine. That’s what it’s there for. “[F]or instruction in righteousness,” verse 17,
“That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Christ said, Well, why do you call me lord, lord, and do not the things that I say? Why do you
call me lord? See, why do you say you believe in me? Why do you say I’m your master?
-

“Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints,
and of the household of God.” Now this is talking about the Church of course. “Fellowcitizens
with the saints, and [with] the household of God,” v 20, “And are built upon the foundation of
the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

Now those prophets, that’s Old Testament. Those are the Old Testament writers. That’s the
foundation. If the Church is not built on that foundation, the writings of the prophets and the
apostles, then it’s not the Church of God. That’s the foundation upon which it’s built.


The true Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets and Jesus
Christ Himself is the chief corner stone. And of course this was said to Gentile-born
Christians. This was predominately a Gentile congregation.

2 Peter 1:21 “For the prophecy came not in old,” this is in old time, talking about
the Old Testament. “The prophecy came not in old time by the will of man.”

That prophecy of the “old time” didn’t come “by the will of man:
but by holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”


“But the word of the Eternal endures for ever.” God’s Word endures forever.
Do you know search, there are over 300 passages in the New Testament
that directly quote or paraphrase or refer to the Old Testament


John 5:39 This is Christ talking, “Search the scriptures.” Well, what scriptures is he
talking about? The only ones that were there is the Old Testament. Search scriptures
“for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

Christ said, Look, if you want to know who I am, you better go back and search the
scriptures. Search that Old Testament. Search the writings of those holy men.
Search that Word of God that endures forever.

“For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me; for he wrote of me.”
Because Christ believed in the Old Testament. Christ quoted the Old Testament. Christ
lived by those words. He lived by it and He told others, You better live by every word.

And He’s very clear here. He said, Look, if you don’t believe the writings of Moses,
how is it that you can believe my words? Pretty pointed question, isn’t it?

Luke 24: “Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the
prophets have spoken.”

“O fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
[26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
[27] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all
the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

Christ, He expounded—He expounded beginning with the writings of Moses—right
there in Genesis, Exodus and Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy—beginning right
there and then going all the way through all of the other prophets, He expounded unto
them in all of the Scriptures. I mean how much more clear could it be?

Paul said that the Church is built on that foundation.

This Topic has gone way off by some ppls, when the question still remains unanswered.
my answer to this.. is that the Ceremonial Laws are done away with on the Cross at Calvary,
when Jesus died for our sins on the Cross ...He took the Ceremonial Laws with Him. it is written.

There is no evidence saying that Paul does not Follow the 10 Commandment or Keep the Sabbath no Biblical evidence.

There is nothing nowhere in the bible saying that we Have entered into His Rest, because there is no entering, there is a choice to follow Jesus in His footsteps.

Jesus Cannot Be your sabbath, why Because He made the Sabbath for man. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath He is King of the Sabbath He is the Maker of the Sabbath. this is very much different than Jesus being the Sabbath.
Many Christians say that Jesus lives in us, now think .. is he physically in you or does His LOVE/Spirith dwell in you. think logically

A new Creature you are .. this means that God had forgiven you of all your sins ..now Go and sin no more. this means the old has become new.... it does not mean that is old is Forgotten. we learn from our past errors to move into the new..but its not forgotten.
we take the 10 commandment into our new, because it was NOT done away with at the cross. Christ came to fulfill NOT to destroy.. so the 10 commandment is not destroyed.

Matthew 22:37-38 (KJV) 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou. TRUE LOVE TO GOD MEANS TO OBEY ALL 10 COMMANDMENTS


37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

the 10 commandment is not done away with by this ... its saying in verse 40 "ALL THE LAW and the prophets"
all the Law means the 10 commandments. on these 2 commandments hang ALL the LAW and the prophets.

so if you LOVE God truly from your heart.. then you have to keep the 10 commandments, His love cannot be without ALL the LAW.
to destroy the 10 commandments is to undo Gods Character. come one now

The7thdayrest . . . and yet, that is only your opinion because you refuse to rightly divide Scripture or believe Paul. You are only interested in pigeon-holing your view. Yet, one day you will have to stand before a holy God and give an account of why you insisted on using the Word of God deceitfully. And you won't be able to hide behind anonymity there.

And yet your very screen name argues against your false teaching, because we rest from our works just as God rested from His in creation. There is nothing left for us to do but trust Christ, reckon the law dead and ourselves alive through faith.

You are betting much more than your life on your opinions.

wauw .. you already pull out the Judgement book to put my name in it.

then i would say where is your biblical evidence to uphold your claim.
i have posted mine.

please explain by what you mean with pigeon-holding view
and yet this is ALL is NOT my opinion, because it is written.
you who called my name saying that i used the word of God deceitfully, where is you proof your biblical evidence.

my screen name in your opinion may be false but that don't say its so by the definition of the Word of God.
you opinion may be yours, but Gods word stands out.

Search my posts and see what I have already written. I have done so, and more.

This is not a answer to my questions from your claims.
bring the Biblical evidence ..to cover your claims.
i'm not going to be looking for your answers in the last pages of this forum.
you accused me ..so you bring you evidence to the table.. i'm not about to look for you answers, i might get the wrong answer ,, so you come and place the right answers if you have them to the right questions i have asked.

or just simply say ..that you don't have any evidence.

You're new here, so you probably aren't aware of the context of these discussions. It is unreasonable to show up late and expect others to take time to bring you up to speed, or to repeat explanatory posts which have been made previously. Do your own homework and don't expect others to do it for you. The site has a search function for good reason.

Further, you hold to a minority position. Don't expect everyone to accept it as truth. Do expect resistance... vigorous at times. Being self-righteous in your responses will earn you disdain.

first of all showing up late is not of my fault, i just found out this forum.
2nd i am not asking to bring me up to speed, if one man knows what he had said before then it is even more simple to copy paste or to just give it in a nutshell what was said or meant, i am a man of "for the right question there must be an accurate right answer pertaining to the Word of God" i'm not going back and forward to ask what the person really meant, that's just wasting time.

i don't expect for no one to do homework for me, since the site has a search function.. then why not look for the answers and copy paste at once since the person knows where his answers be. now you want me to go look up his answers, don't you think i doing His Job then.. when he started the convo. id say don't be a lazy good for nothing, go and find the evidence he claims to have. i'm not going to look for someone else claims.. that don't sound right. i don't think you would go looking for my claims !? right , i'd have to do it myself.

"Further, you hold to a minority position."

Further more do you see any exaltation here on my own behalf?

"Don't expect everyone to accept it as truth."

nope i don't its up to the Holy Spirit to do the convincing.

" Do expect resistance... vigorous at times. Being self-righteous in your responses will earn you disdain."

resistance is always accepted in whatever times. Being Self-righteous is not of a Christian and neither of one to point fingers and say that i am. because i have not shown any Self- righteousness. if so ..according to you.. then were is the evidence written.

"disdain"

looks like you already earned yours by Judging me beforehand.

look the rules were already loud and clear before you came to my attention, to be clear on all this .. facts need to be presented when Claiming some words of God, and a defendant will be looking for his own facts and the accused will do the same for himself, each must have their own facts with them in a court of Law. and this should be also the case on this Christlike forum.

i hope you understand me ...and not Judge me.

God Bless you all.