Sabbath
- Thread starter geaux4it
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I wasn't attempting to equate. I cited the text in its context, demonstrating that the law spoken of in Hebrews 7, is not the spiritual Ten Commandments, the Law of God's eternal unchanging character, but is instead, contextually, only dealing with the temporary (or provisional, typological) law of the carnal commandment, to make of men (Levites) priests, and the change in that law, from the type (Levi, those in the loins of Abraham) to antitype (Melchizedek, the original priesthood to which Abraham gave honour to).
The Ten Commandments are the spiritual moral Law. God's morality, does not change, since it is His character.
Other laws can change depending upon the context in which they were given, see the one about 'divorce' (Matthew 10:5, etc).
Not ever in question, except with the caveat, when you use the word "in the same law", is not the same as the Ten Commandments. There is not a single precept in the Ten Commandments regarding Levitical priesthood. You have a confusion of the term "law". The issue is not mine.
Not in question. What has that to do with the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) and this thread?
Not in question, except with the caveat, that it is not about "whatever commandment [I.] confess was disannulled", but specifically about what the text, in context declared, and it having nothing to do with the spiritual Ten Commandments whatsoever, but instead dealing only with the carnal commandment of levitical priesthood. God is the interpreter of his own word, as per Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; Isaiah 28:10,13, and so on.
The Ten Commandments are the spiritual moral Law. God's morality, does not change, since it is His character.
Other laws can change depending upon the context in which they were given, see the one about 'divorce' (Matthew 10:5, etc).
Not ever in question, except with the caveat, when you use the word "in the same law", is not the same as the Ten Commandments. There is not a single precept in the Ten Commandments regarding Levitical priesthood. You have a confusion of the term "law". The issue is not mine.
Not in question. What has that to do with the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) and this thread?
Not in question, except with the caveat, that it is not about "whatever commandment [I.] confess was disannulled", but specifically about what the text, in context declared, and it having nothing to do with the spiritual Ten Commandments whatsoever, but instead dealing only with the carnal commandment of levitical priesthood. God is the interpreter of his own word, as per Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; Isaiah 28:10,13, and so on.
this sure looks like you're making an equivalence:
Malachi 3:6 ((which isn't the context of the decalogue)) says "I am the LORD; I change not"
if this means ((as you quite clearly imply)) that the commandment doesn't change because God doesn't change, you've got a direct contradiction to Hebrews 7:18, "there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before"
the same God that gave physical circumcision did not require it of believers in Christ - though to Abraham He says "My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant" ((Gen. 17:13)) and gives it again in His covenant law with Israel at Sinai. indisputably, physical circumcision is not a requirement of the believer in Christ ((Galatians 5-6, Romans 3-5, 1 Cor. 7, Acts 15 etc))
at least one of two things must be true:
the resolution is written all over the NT in extraordinarily clear language: we are not under law, but grace.
Malachi 3:6 ((which isn't the context of the decalogue)) says "I am the LORD; I change not"
if this means ((as you quite clearly imply)) that the commandment doesn't change because God doesn't change, you've got a direct contradiction to Hebrews 7:18, "there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before"
the same God that gave physical circumcision did not require it of believers in Christ - though to Abraham He says "My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant" ((Gen. 17:13)) and gives it again in His covenant law with Israel at Sinai. indisputably, physical circumcision is not a requirement of the believer in Christ ((Galatians 5-6, Romans 3-5, 1 Cor. 7, Acts 15 etc))
at least one of two things must be true:
- jots and tittle of the Law are removed
- the believer isn't under the Law
the resolution is written all over the NT in extraordinarily clear language: we are not under law, but grace.
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I just told you, in no uncertain terms, that it was not the case, and then proceeded with further evidence that it was not the case. If you are simply going to deny the very position which I hold to as stated, not much more to say here, but feel free to continue arguing against an imaginary opponent.
Yes, Malachi 3:6 is in the context of the character of God, the Ten Commandments. He just told the priests that they were "sons of Jacob", which means He just called them thieves (Jacob), which is a violation of His perfect will and character, the Ten Commandments (Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. ):
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
I mean, really, that is pretty basic.
Malachi 3, is also in the context of the New Covenant, see Malachi 3:1, of which tithe is a part of.
Do you tithe as God commands? If not, then God's words in Malachi 3:6-9 also apply to you.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
I mean, really, that is pretty basic.
Malachi 3, is also in the context of the New Covenant, see Malachi 3:1, of which tithe is a part of.
Do you tithe as God commands? If not, then God's words in Malachi 3:6-9 also apply to you.
your fiat doesn't erase your contradiction.
you said the 10 commandments are eternal because Malachi 3:6.
if Malachi 3:6 means the commandments of God don't change, then neither does the Levitical priesthood, because it was established by the commandment of the same God.
physical circumcision. a sign of a covenant.
a covenant said to be everlasting in the flesh.
a physical sign not required of believers in Christ - having been accomplished spiritually in us by the hand of God.
vis-a-vis the physical sign of the Mosaic covenant.
not physically required; accomplished by the hand of God in whoever is in Christ.
you said the 10 commandments are eternal because Malachi 3:6.
if Malachi 3:6 means the commandments of God don't change, then neither does the Levitical priesthood, because it was established by the commandment of the same God.
physical circumcision. a sign of a covenant.
a covenant said to be everlasting in the flesh.
a physical sign not required of believers in Christ - having been accomplished spiritually in us by the hand of God.
vis-a-vis the physical sign of the Mosaic covenant.
not physically required; accomplished by the hand of God in whoever is in Christ.
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God's character, His perfect will, the Ten Commandments (*thus also the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11), the morality of God does not change. I didn't say so, God said so (Exodus 20:5-6, 33:12-24; 34:1-9; Psalms 102:37; Hebrews 1:12, 13:8, &c.)
The Ten Commandments are spiritual (Romans 7:14), not carnal (as the levitical priesthood laws were, Hebrews 7:16), and thus as a written transcript of God' eternal character (texts cited above), they cannot change, for God Himself would have to change His character.
You are confusing, God's Ten Commandments (Psalms 40:8; see also Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth., and Truth, by very nature, doesn't ever change and is eternal), with the remaining carnal and temporary/transitory things of type.
Presently, you are the one attemping (an incorrect) equivalence.
The Ten Commandments are spiritual (Romans 7:14), not carnal (as the levitical priesthood laws were, Hebrews 7:16), and thus as a written transcript of God' eternal character (texts cited above), they cannot change, for God Himself would have to change His character.
You are confusing, God's Ten Commandments (Psalms 40:8; see also Psa_119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth., and Truth, by very nature, doesn't ever change and is eternal), with the remaining carnal and temporary/transitory things of type.
Presently, you are the one attemping (an incorrect) equivalence.
In case you have not been reading my responses, in detail, I never claimed that the Christian is "under the law" (Romans 3:19), but have already said that the Chritian is "under grace" and cited several passages to that effect. Attacking a strawman of one's own creating, is not dealing with my stated position.
Jesus said:
Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth are still here. All "jot(s) & "tittle(s)" are very much still present. Not a single thing is erased. It is all a matter of timing and context.
For instance, the laws regarding stoning the sabbath-breaker still apply, as do the ones about not kindling a fire throughout the habitations on sabbath, and not leaving one's place, burning the daughter of a priest who plays the whore, and etc. All a matter of timing and context.
Who ever said that the "believer" is "under the law"? Certainly not I.
Being "under grace" (because God was good, to deliver us from transgression of His Law) does not give license to sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 6:15, &c), which is transgression of His Law of Ten Commandments.
The issue is, you are redefining "sin", to exclude the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11).
Jesus said:
Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth are still here. All "jot(s) & "tittle(s)" are very much still present. Not a single thing is erased. It is all a matter of timing and context.
For instance, the laws regarding stoning the sabbath-breaker still apply, as do the ones about not kindling a fire throughout the habitations on sabbath, and not leaving one's place, burning the daughter of a priest who plays the whore, and etc. All a matter of timing and context.
Who ever said that the "believer" is "under the law"? Certainly not I.
Being "under grace" (because God was good, to deliver us from transgression of His Law) does not give license to sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 6:15, &c), which is transgression of His Law of Ten Commandments.
The issue is, you are redefining "sin", to exclude the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11).
You see, this is the incorrect equivalency you are attemping to assert (terrible job by the way).
God's character (texts already cited, several times now) is written out as the Ten Commandments. They are Truth, Morality, Eternal and Unchanging as He is (character). This cannot change, because God is Love, and thus all the Ten Commandments are the written expression of that Love. They are spiritual. Malachi 3:6 deals with "robbed" (theft, Exodus 20:15), and thus The Ten Commandments.
God issuing orders involving a transitory carnal law for taking of men among the Levites, for the purpose of fashioning a priesthood of them, is entirely different. Making of Levitical men into a priesthood, is not given in the Ten Commndments. It is a carnal and not spiritual commandment.
God can disannul such carnal commandments, but cannot ever change His eternal character of Love (of which the Ten Commandments are a written transcript of, as cited repeatedly now).
Your attempted equivalency is incorrect, as stated at least twice now.
God's character (texts already cited, several times now) is written out as the Ten Commandments. They are Truth, Morality, Eternal and Unchanging as He is (character). This cannot change, because God is Love, and thus all the Ten Commandments are the written expression of that Love. They are spiritual. Malachi 3:6 deals with "robbed" (theft, Exodus 20:15), and thus The Ten Commandments.
God issuing orders involving a transitory carnal law for taking of men among the Levites, for the purpose of fashioning a priesthood of them, is entirely different. Making of Levitical men into a priesthood, is not given in the Ten Commndments. It is a carnal and not spiritual commandment.
God can disannul such carnal commandments, but cannot ever change His eternal character of Love (of which the Ten Commandments are a written transcript of, as cited repeatedly now).
Your attempted equivalency is incorrect, as stated at least twice now.
Indeed.
THE MORAL CHARACTER OF GOD AND HIS LAW:
[Quoted and Adapted from: "CAN PERSECUTION ARISE IN AMERICA?"; S. A. KAPLAN; PUBLISHED FOR THE RELIGIOUS LIBERTY ASSOCIATION; WASHINGTON, D.C. 20012; BY THE REVIEW AND HERALD PUBLISHING ASSOCIATION; WASHINGTON, DC 1967] -
http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Sabbath-Sunday/CanPersecutionAriseInAmerica.pdf
[01.]
God is JUST - [Romans 3:26]
His law is JUST - [Romans 7:12]
[02.]
God is TRUE - [John 3:33]
His law is TRUE - [Nehemiah 9:13]
[03.]
God is PURE - [1 John 3:3]
His law is PURE - [Psalms 19:7,8]
[04.]
God is LIGHT - [1 John 1:5]
His law is LIGHT - [Proverbs 6:23]
[05.]
God is FAITHFUL - [1 Corinthians 1:9]
His law is FAITHFUL - [Psalms 119:86]
[06.]
God is GOOD - [Nahum 1:7]
His law is GOOD - [Romans 7:12,16]
[07.]
God is SPIRITUAL - [John 4:24]
His law is SPIRITUAL - [Romans 7:14]
[08.]
God is HOLY - [Isaiah 6:3; 1 Peter 1:15]
His law is HOLY - [Exodus 20:8; Romans 7:12]
[09.]
God is TRUTH - [John 14:6]
His law is TRUTH - [Psalms 119:142,151]
[10.]
God is LIFE - [John 14:6]
His law is LIFE - [Matthew 19:17]
[11.]
God is RIGHTEOUSNESS - [Jeremiah 23:6]
His law is RIGHTEOUSNESS - [Psalms 119:172]
[12.]
God is PERFECT - [Matthew 5:48]
His law is PERFECT - [James 1:25]
[13.]
God is ETERNAL - [John 8:35]
His law is ETERNAL - [Psalms 111:7,8]
[14.]
God is PEACE - [Isaiah 9:6]
His law is PEACE - [Psalms 119:165]
[15.]
God is THE WAY - [John 14:6]
His law is THE WAY - [Psalms 119:30-32]
[16.]
God is SURE - [2 Timothy 2:19]
His law is SURE - [Psalms 19:7, 111:7,8]
[17.]
God is UNCHANGING - [Malachi 3:6]
His law is UNCHANGING - [Psalms 111:7,8]
[18.]
God is SWEET - [Psalms 34:8]
His law is SWEET - [Psalms 19:10, 119:103]
[19.]
God is WISE - [Psalms 111:10]
His law is WISE - [Psalms 19:7]
[20.]
God is OUR MEDITATION - [Psalms 63:6]
His law is OUR MEDITATION - [Psalms 1:2]
[21.]
God is JUDGE - [Psalms 50:6]
His law is JUDGE - [James 2:12]
[22.]
God is ENLIGHTENMENT - [Psalms 18:27]
His law is ENLIGHTENMENT - [Psalms 19:8]
[23.]
God is LOVE - [1 John 4:7,8]
His law is LOVE - [Romans 13:8-10]
[24.]
God is CLEAN - [Psalms 19:9]
His law is CLEAN - [Ezekiel 22:26]
[25.]
God is BLESSED - [Psalms 28:6]
His law is BLESSED - [Exodus 20:11]
[26.]
God is DELIGHT - [Psalms 37:4]
His law is DELIGHT - [Psalms 1:2]
[27.]
God is WONDERFUL - [Isaiah 9:6]
His law is WONDERFUL - [Psalms 119:18]
[28.]
God is LIBERTY - [Isaiah 61:1]
His law is LIBERTY - [James 1:25; Psalms 119:45]
[29.]
God is COMFORT - [Psalms 23:4]
His law is COMFORT - [Psalms 119:50]
[30.]
God is OUR SONG - [Revelation 15:3]
His law is OUR SONG - [Psalms 119:54]
[31.]
God is MERCIFUL - [Exodus 34:5]
His law is MERCIFUL - [Psalms 119:58]
[32.]
God is KNOWLEDGE - [Isaiah 11:2]
His law is KNOWLEDGE - [Psalms 119:66]
[33.]
God is HOPE - [Psalms 130:7]
His law is HOPE - [Psalms 119:74]
[34.]
God is LIFE - [Psalms 36:9]
His law is LIFE - [Proverbs 3:1,2]
[35.]
God is SOUND - [Proverbs 8:13,14]
His law is SOUND - [Psalms 119:80]
[36.]
God is UNDERSTANDING - [Psalms 147:5]
His law is UNDERSTANDING - [Psalms 119:99]
[37.]
God is HAPPINESS - [Psalms 146:5]
His law is HAPPINESS - [Proverbs 29:18]
[38.]
God is JOY - [Psalms 16:11]
His law is JOY - [Psalms 119:162]
THE MORAL CHARACTER OF GOD AND HIS LAW:
[Quoted and Adapted from: "CAN PERSECUTION ARISE IN AMERICA?"; S. A. KAPLAN; PUBLISHED FOR THE RELIGIOUS LIBERTY ASSOCIATION; WASHINGTON, D.C. 20012; BY THE REVIEW AND HERALD PUBLISHING ASSOCIATION; WASHINGTON, DC 1967] -
http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Sabbath-Sunday/CanPersecutionAriseInAmerica.pdf
[01.]
God is JUST - [Romans 3:26]
His law is JUST - [Romans 7:12]
[02.]
God is TRUE - [John 3:33]
His law is TRUE - [Nehemiah 9:13]
[03.]
God is PURE - [1 John 3:3]
His law is PURE - [Psalms 19:7,8]
[04.]
God is LIGHT - [1 John 1:5]
His law is LIGHT - [Proverbs 6:23]
[05.]
God is FAITHFUL - [1 Corinthians 1:9]
His law is FAITHFUL - [Psalms 119:86]
[06.]
God is GOOD - [Nahum 1:7]
His law is GOOD - [Romans 7:12,16]
[07.]
God is SPIRITUAL - [John 4:24]
His law is SPIRITUAL - [Romans 7:14]
[08.]
God is HOLY - [Isaiah 6:3; 1 Peter 1:15]
His law is HOLY - [Exodus 20:8; Romans 7:12]
[09.]
God is TRUTH - [John 14:6]
His law is TRUTH - [Psalms 119:142,151]
[10.]
God is LIFE - [John 14:6]
His law is LIFE - [Matthew 19:17]
[11.]
God is RIGHTEOUSNESS - [Jeremiah 23:6]
His law is RIGHTEOUSNESS - [Psalms 119:172]
[12.]
God is PERFECT - [Matthew 5:48]
His law is PERFECT - [James 1:25]
[13.]
God is ETERNAL - [John 8:35]
His law is ETERNAL - [Psalms 111:7,8]
[14.]
God is PEACE - [Isaiah 9:6]
His law is PEACE - [Psalms 119:165]
[15.]
God is THE WAY - [John 14:6]
His law is THE WAY - [Psalms 119:30-32]
[16.]
God is SURE - [2 Timothy 2:19]
His law is SURE - [Psalms 19:7, 111:7,8]
[17.]
God is UNCHANGING - [Malachi 3:6]
His law is UNCHANGING - [Psalms 111:7,8]
[18.]
God is SWEET - [Psalms 34:8]
His law is SWEET - [Psalms 19:10, 119:103]
[19.]
God is WISE - [Psalms 111:10]
His law is WISE - [Psalms 19:7]
[20.]
God is OUR MEDITATION - [Psalms 63:6]
His law is OUR MEDITATION - [Psalms 1:2]
[21.]
God is JUDGE - [Psalms 50:6]
His law is JUDGE - [James 2:12]
[22.]
God is ENLIGHTENMENT - [Psalms 18:27]
His law is ENLIGHTENMENT - [Psalms 19:8]
[23.]
God is LOVE - [1 John 4:7,8]
His law is LOVE - [Romans 13:8-10]
[24.]
God is CLEAN - [Psalms 19:9]
His law is CLEAN - [Ezekiel 22:26]
[25.]
God is BLESSED - [Psalms 28:6]
His law is BLESSED - [Exodus 20:11]
[26.]
God is DELIGHT - [Psalms 37:4]
His law is DELIGHT - [Psalms 1:2]
[27.]
God is WONDERFUL - [Isaiah 9:6]
His law is WONDERFUL - [Psalms 119:18]
[28.]
God is LIBERTY - [Isaiah 61:1]
His law is LIBERTY - [James 1:25; Psalms 119:45]
[29.]
God is COMFORT - [Psalms 23:4]
His law is COMFORT - [Psalms 119:50]
[30.]
God is OUR SONG - [Revelation 15:3]
His law is OUR SONG - [Psalms 119:54]
[31.]
God is MERCIFUL - [Exodus 34:5]
His law is MERCIFUL - [Psalms 119:58]
[32.]
God is KNOWLEDGE - [Isaiah 11:2]
His law is KNOWLEDGE - [Psalms 119:66]
[33.]
God is HOPE - [Psalms 130:7]
His law is HOPE - [Psalms 119:74]
[34.]
God is LIFE - [Psalms 36:9]
His law is LIFE - [Proverbs 3:1,2]
[35.]
God is SOUND - [Proverbs 8:13,14]
His law is SOUND - [Psalms 119:80]
[36.]
God is UNDERSTANDING - [Psalms 147:5]
His law is UNDERSTANDING - [Psalms 119:99]
[37.]
God is HAPPINESS - [Psalms 146:5]
His law is HAPPINESS - [Proverbs 29:18]
[38.]
God is JOY - [Psalms 16:11]
His law is JOY - [Psalms 119:162]
It says:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Jesus Christ is the true "Levi" (meaning "attached to" His Father, see Genesis 29:34), and the "sons" thereof, are His disciples (Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18, etc), as stated, Isa_66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Jesus Christ is the true "Levi" (meaning "attached to" His Father, see Genesis 29:34), and the "sons" thereof, are His disciples (Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18, etc), as stated, Isa_66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
I am most zealous for my LORD of the Sabbath - Jesus Christ.
Christ Jesus was also zealous for His Father's law:
Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Since the Law of God is His very Character, as demonstrated previously.
Never said that "the Law" saves. Strawman, non-sequitur to what was stated.
I repeatedly said otherwise, that it is God who "saves" (Matthew 1:21) and brings out of bondage (Exodus 20:2) of sin (1 John 3:4) by His grace (Ephesians 2:8-10) and it is God who justifies (Isaiah 45:25).
If only people who claim, with their mouths, to love and serve God, would obey Him in His commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6), instead of trying to undo the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) through a myriad of ways, all contradictory one to the other.
Christ Jesus was also zealous for His Father's law:
Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Since the Law of God is His very Character, as demonstrated previously.
Never said that "the Law" saves. Strawman, non-sequitur to what was stated.
I repeatedly said otherwise, that it is God who "saves" (Matthew 1:21) and brings out of bondage (Exodus 20:2) of sin (1 John 3:4) by His grace (Ephesians 2:8-10) and it is God who justifies (Isaiah 45:25).
If only people who claim, with their mouths, to love and serve God, would obey Him in His commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6), instead of trying to undo the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) through a myriad of ways, all contradictory one to the other.