Sabbath
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The question I was asking, was weather in your view the two or three Witnesses that the law talks about for capital crimes had to be eyewitnesses, observers of the actual event.
Now, it sounds like from your response that no, you do not think that the two or three Witnesses need to be present at the event, to be Observers.
I agree that the scriptures do not mention any accusers coming forward other than Prophets. This does not mean that no accusers came forward, it's possible they did but the elders at The City Gate dismiss the issue out of fear for their lives.
Now, the law says that a man who sleeps with another woman who is married to another man is to be stoned. I wouldn't really call that an accusation, more precisely it is a statement of fact.
Now, it sounds like from your response that no, you do not think that the two or three Witnesses need to be present at the event, to be Observers.
I agree that the scriptures do not mention any accusers coming forward other than Prophets. This does not mean that no accusers came forward, it's possible they did but the elders at The City Gate dismiss the issue out of fear for their lives.
Now, the law says that a man who sleeps with another woman who is married to another man is to be stoned. I wouldn't really call that an accusation, more precisely it is a statement of fact.
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I was asking steady man how he understood the role of the witness in the law. I don't think that's quibbling. If it is, I suppose the vast majority of post here on the bible discussion forum are sinful.
sometimes I will continue to ask the same question if the responder hasn't actually answered the question, that's true!
sometimes I will continue to ask the same question if the responder hasn't actually answered the question, that's true!
Hi Jesus Lives! Good to see you here.
I think it depends on whether a person sees the description of God doing something as an implied commandment for humans to do that as well.
In other words, God rested so that's a commandment for us to rest, or Adam and Eve to rest.
I'm not completely sure, but I can't think of any place in the scriptures where humans rest on the Sabbath prior to the Israelites coming out of Egypt, the law being given at Sinai.
I think it depends on whether a person sees the description of God doing something as an implied commandment for humans to do that as well.
In other words, God rested so that's a commandment for us to rest, or Adam and Eve to rest.
I'm not completely sure, but I can't think of any place in the scriptures where humans rest on the Sabbath prior to the Israelites coming out of Egypt, the law being given at Sinai.
But you do raise an interesting point, what is the proper role of discussion among Christians? And is it different if we say debate or argument instead of discussion?
We do see that Paul when he was at Athens spent a lot of his time in the marketplace, basically the philosophy discussion forum debating with people there.
We see in the beginning of Acts 15 that some men come from Judea and our teaching in the church and Paul and Barnabas have significant Discord with them.
In that situation, there are living apostles that can be called together to decide the matter.
But how is it done today? I agree that sometimes, maybe oftentimes, the Fruit of the Spirit is not on significant display in the bible discussion forum.
We do see that Paul when he was at Athens spent a lot of his time in the marketplace, basically the philosophy discussion forum debating with people there.
We see in the beginning of Acts 15 that some men come from Judea and our teaching in the church and Paul and Barnabas have significant Discord with them.
In that situation, there are living apostles that can be called together to decide the matter.
But how is it done today? I agree that sometimes, maybe oftentimes, the Fruit of the Spirit is not on significant display in the bible discussion forum.
In the letter he wrote:
Put Uriah at the front of the fiercest fighting, then withdraw from him so that he is struck down and dies.
(2 Samuel 11:15)
to understand where and what the fiercest fighting was, it is helpful to know what war David was waging ((from the palace)).
In the spring of the year, the time when kings go out to battle, David sent Joab with his officers and all Israel with him; they ravaged the Ammonites, and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem.
(2 Samuel 11:1)
David had stayed at Jerusalem while he sent the Joab with the Israelite army to lay siege to a fortified city.
this is what besieging a city is like: you camp around it in a blockade and wait to weaken the enemy in his fort by letting him run out of supplies. you might test his strength once in a while to try to break through a door, but whenever you do that there are men protected by walls dropping rocks and arrows and spears on your head. maybe burning oil and pitch. you're out in the open plain or in a moat. you don't do this often because basically what happens is most of your men die and maybe your archers pick off one or two on the parapets. what you do instead is park outside of the range of the bowmen in the walled city - which is longer than your range because they are on a tall wall and you are on the ground - and block their trade roots. wait for them to starve.
so it makes sense that the 'fiercest fighting' is at the foot of the wall trying to force an opening. there really isn't much other fighting. and getting to the wall costs lives, and every second of staying at the wall costs lives, in a very lopsided manner.
yes Dan, there is a good reason to think that David's scheme put several other innocent men's lives at needless risk; i've given you a logical basis for it
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there is a first time time the seventh day is mentioned in scripture, and then there is a first time that an observation of a sabbath is commanded and observed. those are not concurrent; God's rest and His blessing of it is in the opening of Genesis, the sabbath is first commanded to be observed in conjunction with manna ((with no mention of creation and no indication that the people knew how to observe a sabbath or were already in the habit of doing so)) in Exodus 16.
a person may make the assumption that a commandment is implied by God Himself resting and blessing the day He did so, and assume that observation of it had been continuously taking place, though neither the command nor the observation are found in the scriptural record.
a person may not make that assumption, on the other hand. it's possible that sabbaths had been routinely physically observed all that time but it's going beyond what's written, and what is actually written mildly suggests otherwise.
so one ((who takes the latter view)) explains 'that' by pointing out that the request for explanation assumes something which probably isn't true.
a person may make the assumption that a commandment is implied by God Himself resting and blessing the day He did so, and assume that observation of it had been continuously taking place, though neither the command nor the observation are found in the scriptural record.
a person may not make that assumption, on the other hand. it's possible that sabbaths had been routinely physically observed all that time but it's going beyond what's written, and what is actually written mildly suggests otherwise.
so one ((who takes the latter view)) explains 'that' by pointing out that the request for explanation assumes something which probably isn't true.
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In the letter he wrote:
Put Uriah at the front of the fiercest fighting, then withdraw from him so that he is struck down and dies.
(2 Samuel 11:15)
to understand where and what the fiercest fighting was, it is helpful to know what war David was waging ((from the palace)).
In the spring of the year, the time when kings go out to battle, David sent Joab with his officers and all Israel with him; they ravaged the Ammonites, and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem.
(2 Samuel 11:1)
David had stayed at Jerusalem while he sent the Joab with the Israelite army to lay siege to a fortified city.
this is what besieging a city is like: you camp around it in a blockade and wait to weaken the enemy in his fort by letting him run out of supplies. you might test his strength once in a while to try to break through a door, but whenever you do that there are men protected by walls dropping rocks and arrows and spears on your head. maybe burning oil and pitch. you're out in the open plain or in a moat. you don't do this often because basically what happens is most of your men die and maybe your archers pick off one or two on the parapets. what you do instead is park outside of the range of the bowmen in the walled city - which is longer than your range because they are on a tall wall and you are on the ground - and block their trade roots. wait for them to starve.
so it makes sense that the 'fiercest fighting' is at the foot of the wall trying to force an opening. there really isn't much other fighting. and getting to the wall costs lives, and every second of staying at the wall costs lives, in a very lopsided manner.
yes Dan, there is a good reason to think that David's scheme put several other innocent men's lives at needless risk; i've given you a logical basis for it
Joab sent David a full account of the battle. He instructed the messenger:
“When you have finished giving the king this account of the battle, the king’s anger may flare up, and he may ask you,
‘Why did you get so close to the city to fight? Didn’t you know they would shoot arrows from the wall? Who killed Abimelek son of Jerub-Besheth? Didn’t a woman drop an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you get so close to the wall?’
If he asks you this, then say to him, ‘Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.’ ”
(2 Samuel 11:18-21)
(2 Samuel 11:18-21)
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Non-Jews Gentiles are not "obligated" to keep the Shabbat. Now if you study what "honouring and remembering" the Shabbat means, you will soon realize that the 39 prohibitions and several other commands extracted from the Torah, emulate what keeping the Shabbat means. It is not simply "rest". To minimize G-d's infinite wisdom to one short English word is unfortunate. However, No Gentile should keep all the commands of the Shabbat but merits "righteousness" by doing so. This is why Paul argues heavily against a physical circumcision because then a Non-Jew is 100% obligated to the Torah and the Oral Torah.
In short, you can celebrate it anyway you desire, but for a Jew they MUST obey G-d's commands. Hebrew and Judaism is the key to understanding true wisdom. (Matt 23:1-3, Psalm 19:8-10, Romans 11)
In short, you can celebrate it anyway you desire, but for a Jew they MUST obey G-d's commands. Hebrew and Judaism is the key to understanding true wisdom. (Matt 23:1-3, Psalm 19:8-10, Romans 11)
You are correct on when the Shabbat is given, however many written commands like "not to create fire", "double portion of manna", "not to carry", "the distance of travel", "time of the Shabbat" is all given in the written Torah. Even Acts 1:12 talks about the Shabbat distance. Now without getting into a long debate about the Oral Law, there are many commands that you will only find when understanding Hebrew (Matt 5:17-18 even accounts to that importance) that provide other laws, but this is all GIVEN to the JEWS to be OBLIGATED too, not Gentiles for many reasons. An easy question is, where in the Torah or Tanakh did G-d say, "Read the Haftarah/Tanakh portions" on Shabbat?" Was Jesus following Oral Tradition? G-d said to celebrate Sukkot but where did G-d say how too yet Jesus followed many Oral Traditions that Jews do today? (Hoshanna Rabbah, Singing Hallel, Water Drawn From Living Water, etc).
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Kinda the same thing with the first murder... there were no commandments at that time but Cain knew he was wrong in murdering Able. God's law has always been in existence even if it wasn't written on stone in the garden lots of implications apparent. With the conversation God had with Cain about the murder....
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Hmmm,
Mar 2:27 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Isa 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed.
Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Isa 56:3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree."
Isa 56:4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
Isa 56:5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—
Isa 56:7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."
Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
Paul taught Gentiles on the Sabbath. The early church kept the Sabbath and it was not changed until the AD300's by a decree from Constantine at the behest of the council of Nicea.
Mar 2:27 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Isa 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed.
Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Isa 56:3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree."
Isa 56:4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
Isa 56:5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—
Isa 56:7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."
Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
Paul taught Gentiles on the Sabbath. The early church kept the Sabbath and it was not changed until the AD300's by a decree from Constantine at the behest of the council of Nicea.
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God plainly says that the very first seventh day was a Sabbath...
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
The seventh day of creation week was blessed and called a Sabbath.
The Sabbath was clearly in a practice before Mt. Sinai...
Exo 16:23 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.' "
Exo 16:24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it.
Exo 16:25 Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none."
The Commandments were also in effect before Mt. Sinai...
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?
Well before Mt. Sinai...
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
At Abraham's time the Commandments, Statutes and Laws were known and kept.
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
The seventh day of creation week was blessed and called a Sabbath.
The Sabbath was clearly in a practice before Mt. Sinai...
Exo 16:23 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.' "
Exo 16:24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it.
Exo 16:25 Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none."
The Commandments were also in effect before Mt. Sinai...
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?
Well before Mt. Sinai...
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
At Abraham's time the Commandments, Statutes and Laws were known and kept.
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This is, of course, Biblical truth. But look what happens to the foundational preaching of "many" religions if this truth is applied to them.
The narrative that "many" religions further is that the God of the Bible is an unjust God so His Son had to come and save us from Him and His unjust instructions. So the teaching that God is just, is any application, is taught against. Of course God's Laws have always been there for His creation. But men have it in their hearts to lust after "the other woman". In many cases a religion which has no Sabbaths, or at least none created by the Word which became Flesh.
This brings us religions that "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions", which has been rejected by God from Cain to the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, and will be rejected by God today as the Messiah clearly points out.
Matt. 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There can be no doubt, if the Word of God is our guide, that the God of the Bible's Will is that we honor His Holy Sabbath. This is part of God's Salvation plan for us along with not killing others, stealing, committing adultery etc., at least as far as the Word which became Flesh is concerned.
The test of faith is, will we repent and turn to God when our lust for "other religions" has been exposed by His Word, like David? Or will we stop our ears from His Correction and simply silence the Word as religious men did to the Messiah and to Stephen?
Good post JL
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I think you may have this backwards. The long haired men's hair shampoo model the Catholics created that you call Jesus is an idol. The Lord of the Sabbath is the real deal. The Council of Laodicea led people away from the real deal, and preached "another Jesus" with Long hair and no Sabbath of God.
John 832 knows this. And the scriptures confirm as the Word clearly shows. He isn't leading people away from the Christ of the Bible or His Salvation. He believes in the Lord of the Sabbath, not that other guy.
John 832 knows this. And the scriptures confirm as the Word clearly shows. He isn't leading people away from the Christ of the Bible or His Salvation. He believes in the Lord of the Sabbath, not that other guy.
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John 10 - Jesus said Himself that he would lay His life down, no one could take it from Him, He could lay it down, and He could take it up again.
He specifically said He had the authority to do so.
only God can say this.
so, you accept this truth, that Jesus was fully God and fully man, or your opinions remain invalid.
He specifically said He had the authority to do so.
only God can say this.
so, you accept this truth, that Jesus was fully God and fully man, or your opinions remain invalid.
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