Do you know your scripture?

So you're still REQUIRED to give to your local Church, and nobody out there tries to take advantage of that?

Never mind the emotional appeals, just talk straight.

What does God want from us?

See post #50

Yes but now you're talking about a totally different situation to the one you originally used the saying for - which was the point of the thread.

The thing is, after awhile, most threads go off on a tangent and the conversation may differ from the OP. I was merely responding to your post and your point that the kingdom of God proceeds for the most part by having real conversations and that there is no cost attached.

Conversation is one thing but actual action is another thing altogether as this is the means that accomplishes what is discussed in the conversation and may require the sacrifice of blood, sweat and tears. In the bible it says to count the costs when contemplating an action. Your contention is that furthering the kingdom of God need not cost anything. My contention is that there is often a cost attached and depending on what needs to be done the cost may be substantial.

In relative terms, talk is cheap compared to the action required to accomplish the task at hand which may further the kingdom of God. Prayer is one thing, and answered prayer is another thing altogether.

I hope that this post clarifies my position. It did not cost me anything to offer it.

In relative terms, talk is cheap compared to the action required to accomplish the task at hand which may further the kingdom of God

Straight question, straight answer...

Please tell me why, UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, Christians are OBLIGATED to give some of their income to the church.


If you think Christians are not obligated but that it's nice to contribute to your church, that's fine.
But that's not the question.

And remember, I'm asking about under the NEW covenant.

Who will follow the words of Jesus and give EVERYTHING away? Luke 18:22

Everything is given by God, and everything will be taken away by him. We came into this world with nothing and we will leave it the same way. Physically speaking. If we seek to own or hold onto anything God will eventually remove it anyways. Why fight him? Give to others what was freely given you. And do everything with love and kindness in the fear of the Lord.

This is why we need a church, to help others reach this goal.

The thing is, after awhile, most threads go off on a tangent and the conversation may differ from the OP. I was merely responding to your post and your point that the kingdom of God proceeds for the most part by having real conversations and that there is no cost attached.

Conversation is one thing but actual action is another thing altogether as this is the means that accomplishes what is discussed in the conversation and may require the sacrifice of blood, sweat and tears. In the bible it says to count the costs when contemplating an action. Your contention is that furthering the kingdom of God need not cost anything. My contention is that there is often a cost attached and depending on what needs to be done the cost may be substantial.

In relative terms, talk is cheap compared to the action required to accomplish the task at hand which may further the kingdom of God. Prayer is one thing, and answered prayer is another thing altogether.

I hope that this post clarifies my position. It did not cost me anything to offer it.

There is a lot of preachers that like to preach give to the Church so they can live a comfortable, prosperous life, especially television evangelists.

Get in to contact with a preacher on television for help, and they most likely will respond asking for money, as if that is their concern more than the problem, or question you pose to them.

Their main concern seems to be money for themselves, before work of the ministry, with some being millionaires, and driving nice cars, and living in nice houses, and trying to convince the congregation they deserve that money, and prosperity, for they preach the Gospel.

But Paul said the preacher is not to be in the ministry for the money, and if they preach that God blesses with money for their wants withdraw yourselves from them, having food, and clothing be content, and God wants equality among the saints, so the preacher does not get blessed any more than any saint.

And the early Church sold all their possessions that was not a necessity, and laid the money at the apostles feet, which they did not use it for personal use, but distributed the money to the poor.

But many preachers use the money that is given for their own personal use, which is for the people so their needs are met, and some preachers, like again television evangelists, are living lavishly, even doling that money out to their children to live lavishly too, and neglecting the purpose of what the money is to be used for.

And this is strange concerning Africa, that there are preachers that are millionaires, taking advantage of the people, but you would think that in such a country that does not prosper like America, that they would have some kind of compassion upon the people, but people are the same all over the world, and the love of money the root of all evil, for it neglects the poor and needy.

It is true that many preachers take advantage of the congregation to cause money to flow in to their Church, so they can live lavishly, or at least have a very comfortable good lifestyle, all at the expense of the people, even taking advantage of old people, and the widows, the same as the Pharisees were doing.

So they probably know they do not have any backing for the preaching of tithes, but they do it anyway for it keeps the money flowing to them to prosper them.

So you're still REQUIRED to give to your local Church, and nobody out there tries to take advantage of that?

Never mind the emotional appeals, just talk straight.

What does God want from us?

See post #50

That cost might be financial btw, @Adam4Eve which is why giving ought to be encouraged. I remember reading Acres of Diamonds by Russel H. Conwell and one part stuck out to me about money and not being opposed to prosperity.

"Money prints your bibles, sends your missionaries, and builds your churches."

Some people seem to be misunderstanding the point of this thread, which has been made explicitly clear on several occasions.


This thread is NOT about:
- whether your money helps to run the Church building
- whether the pastor deserves to be paid
- the lifestyle of your pastor
- whether people who attend the Church ought to CHOOSE to contribute to operating costs


This thread IS about:
- whether COMPULSORY financial giving still effects Christians


We seem to have already established that giving under obligation does not effect Christians.
Read the thread in its entirety.

Don't mix up terminology.
Tithing: giving under obligation, includes money, herbs, animals, etc.
Donating: giving through choice.

I know some Churches confuse the two terms, which is what leads to some of the confusion.
Do your own reading.

The thread has now moved on in light of post #50.

With regards to pastors or Church staff that take advantage of people in the congregation who donate, I think that happens more often than some contributors care to notice.
That's not the same as saying that everybody is up to it.

- Churches who don't publish annual budgets that get voted on by the congregation.
- A Church that doesn't publish full financial reports on where the money is going.
- Pastors and Church staff that are like pigs at the trough: they get a house (standard), cars paid for, holidays paid for, claim travel and restaurant costs as an expense while they're on holiday, utility costs covered.
I don't blame anyone who wants a better life, but there is such a thing as taking the p...
- Church staff who claim fuel and meals as expenses.

Does the money go to furthering God's kingdom, or to ensuring that a select few 'worthies' have a better life?

With regards to pastors or Church staff that take advantage of people in the congregation who donate, I think that happens more often than some contributors care to notice.

- Pastors and Church staff that are like pigs at the trough: they get a house (standard), cars paid for, holidays paid for, claim travel and restaurant costs as an expense while they're on holiday, utility costs covered.

As I said in my post I have not found that to be true. If you are a member of a church you will see where the money goes each quarter. If you disagree that is your time to voice your opinion. If you feel strongly,go talk to the pastor in private. If you feel the funds are being misused as in fraud then leave the church and report the pastor.



The Bible says a work man is worthy of his hire. No, not all pastors get a house. Would you begrudge them having one? I've stayed in a lot of manses over the years. Trust me on this,many congregants would refuse to live in the houses provided. One place we stayed they said the former pastors wife was ungrateful for the house they provided. Well we stayed there for a week. The house was literally falling down. It would cost a fortune to heat it. Near froze to death. I wanted to ask the board member if his dear wife would live in that house. Cause I can tell you she would not!! Also not every church provides a car. Do you begrudge the pastor having a car? Surely not! They claim costs, should they not? See I don't understand why people begrudge a pastor and family. You need to go into ministry yourself and you might understand where I'm coming from. On the whole pastors and staff are not like "pigs at a trough". Trust me on this. Again the Bible said a workman is WORTHY of his hire.

All of that depends on the Pastor entirely. Some are good, some are bad.

I remember there was a thread here about "primitive baptists" a while ago. They are heretics no doubt but they had a system where the pastors all got day jobs, and support themselves.
Now how about THAT?

Wont be seeing that coming in anytime soon, working two days a week, writing 3 sermons? Sign me up!
Especially with the Joel Osteen kind of "sermons" were its just one verse quoted and rest is just cool stories and psychobabble about love and telling people how great they are and how much God loves them. Some pastors got it made in the shade in America! This is probably the biggest pyramid scheme running today. Scientology gives it a run for its money though.

Where im from the pastors RARELY make a fortune like they do in the states. They drive REGULAR CARS and live in REGULAR HOUSES, some even RENT APARTMENTS.
Its like this in the third world too, obviously, seems to me that this phenomena of pastors being too well off financially is mainly an american problem.

Straight question, straight answer...

Please tell me why, UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, Christians are OBLIGATED to give some of their income to the church.


If you think Christians are not obligated but that it's nice to contribute to your church, that's fine.
But that's not the question.

And remember, I'm asking about under the NEW covenant.