Not By Works

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OneOfHis

OneOfHis

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LW97 said:
Once Saved Always Saved? by Shawn Mann I repeat what God has shown me in scripture: that OSAS is proven false by verses such as John 15:2. Even though I teach against OSAS i have NEVER believed that we can "go back and forth" in and out of salvation. Salvation is IN Christ. Jesus stated clearly that those in Him can be removed for being unfruitful, but I have seen no biblical evidence that one who is removed can ever be grafted in again. Romans 11 could be used to make that case "He is able to graft them in again", but the context is about Jews who never had faith in Christ to begin with. They were branches of the Olive Tree (Israel) and were removed for lack of faith in Christ. Now all who are in true Spiritual Israel are those of Faith (in Christ). Romans 11:22 states that we who have been grafted in by faith can also be removed for not enduring. I prefer John 15:2, Gal 5:4, Romans 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20, and Hebrews 10:26-29 over Hebrews 6, but Hebrews 6 still does prove that salvation can be lost. See here: “4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once *been enlightened* ((*Believers* are enlightened by the Spirit. 2 Cor 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)) , who have *tasted* ((same Greek word (Strongs 1089) used here: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should *taste death* for every man.)) the heavenly gift, and have *shared in the Holy Spirit**,((The Holy Spirit is a seal upon true believers. Has anyone outside of Christ "shared in the Holy Spirit"?)) 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away ((If they were never saved, what exactly did they "fall away" from? If you were never on the true ground of salvation, you can't fall away from it. You can't fall from something that you've never reached)), to restore (("restore" means they were truly there)) them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again ((His crucifiction was effectual for them, that's why it says "again")) the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.)) Fit's in perfectly with John 15:2-6 2 Every branch **in me* ((IN CHRIST, only the truely saved are in Christ)) that does not bear fruit he *takes away* (("takes away" from what? From being IN CHRIST)), and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide ((remain)) in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide ((remain)) in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. ((Just like Hebrews 6:8))
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John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit

"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches that do not bare fruit

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"

this is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?


but this has NOTHING to do with the loss of salvation to a saved believer


and MUCH to do with two separate types of men in the same congregation of "believers" (in Him)
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

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UnderGrace said:
Do you find Egyptian philosophy enlightening as well?
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This is an interesting response.
Are you a greek philosopher, or a follower of Jesus Christ the Son of the Father?

It is clear you are happier with the Greek philosophers view of sin over Gods.
Is it because Paul said he was faultless following the law, yet for this to be
true your view would fall apart?

It is fine for anyone to hold any view they are happy with, but cannot claim it
to be Gods revelation in scripture.

Do you realise the Mosaic law was dictated by the Father to Moses?
You cannot play around with the precepts and how they are founded as He is
the judge of All.

But if this causes you no issues, then I understand where you are.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

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OneOfHis said:
So many verses taken out of context to push a false message not of God.
Thankfully God has provided more than enough for every misunderstanding in that post to be explained away.🙂
Click to expand...
So many verses taken out of context to push a false message not of God.
Thankfully God has provided more than enough verses to clearly demonstrate for every misunderstanding to be put into context.
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

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FollowHisSteps said:
So many verses taken out of context to push a false message not of God.
Thankfully God has provided more than enough verses to clearly demonstrate for every misunderstanding to be put into context.
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Absolutely but games aside, I see you as another who has yet to show a belief in the gospel.

From what I have seen you believe it is up to your own choices and will to make it in to heaven.

You do not seem to believe we are saved by grace through faith and given eternal life and will in no wise be cast out.

You do seem to believe Jesus is just some starting point and it is up to you to be righteous enough to make it into heaven.


(forgive me if I have misunderstood your stance, but you are often very vague and dodge questions as well)
 
U

UnderGrace

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OneOfHis said:
So many verses taken out of context to push a false message not of God.

Thankfully God has provided more than enough for every misunderstanding in that post to be explained away.🙂
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Yes, I am not sure the intent of LW97, he tends to do that???
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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LW97 said:
Once Saved Always Saved? by Shawn Mann I repeat what God has shown me in scripture: that OSAS is proven false by verses such as John 15:2. Even though I teach against OSAS i have NEVER believed that we can "go back and forth" in and out of salvation. Salvation is IN Christ. Jesus stated clearly that those in Him can be removed for being unfruitful, but I have seen no biblical evidence that one who is removed can ever be grafted in again. Romans 11 could be used to make that case "He is able to graft them in again", but the context is about Jews who never had faith in Christ to begin with. They were branches of the Olive Tree (Israel) and were removed for lack of faith in Christ. Now all who are in true Spiritual Israel are those of Faith (in Christ). Romans 11:22 states that we who have been grafted in by faith can also be removed for not enduring.
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The writer of this piece is showing a great misunderstanding of the Romans 9-11 section regarding "nations" (Israel [singular nation], and the Gentiles [plural nations]). The writer is disregarding the overall CONTEXT of this section of Scripture, thus coming to an incorrect conclusion (and faulty application). The Olive Tree is not representative of "salvation [individual salvation / eternal life, etc]"... the Olive Tree represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth". I will post portions of a couple of articles I've posted before (in this post and the next):


[quoting other post made by me]

I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):

[quoting from Wigram]

"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.

"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family.
The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."

[also]

"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."

--George V Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041

[end quoting]

[continued in next post...]
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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[continued]


[quoting that other article]

"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."

-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
 
Melach

Melach

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eternally-gratefull said:
I find it amazing, that God said he saved us when we were at our worse. that people think AFTER we have been adopted as a child of God, Given the HS who helps giude us, and chastens us, that we can become WORSE that we were BEFORE we were saved.

That seem to be an impossible task. It basically says GOD totally failed in growing us, they even with his inluence and power. we went backward, NOT FORWARD.
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there is some verse of this happening. we are to walk in the Spirit so we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. where there is failure, we see man, brethren, it is not as though God fails may that never be.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
 
BillG

BillG

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LW97 said:
Once Saved Always Saved? by Shawn Mann I repeat what God has shown me in scripture: that OSAS is proven false by verses such as John 15:2. Even though I teach against OSAS i have NEVER believed that we can "go back and forth" in and out of salvation. Salvation is IN Christ. Jesus stated clearly that those in Him can be removed for being unfruitful, but I have seen no biblical evidence that one who is removed can ever be grafted in again. Romans 11 could be used to make that case "He is able to graft them in again", but the context is about Jews who never had faith in Christ to begin with. They were branches of the Olive Tree (Israel) and were removed for lack of faith in Christ. Now all who are in true Spiritual Israel are those of Faith (in Christ). Romans 11:22 states that we who have been grafted in by faith can also be removed for not enduring. I prefer John 15:2, Gal 5:4, Romans 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20, and Hebrews 10:26-29 over Hebrews 6, but Hebrews 6 still does prove that salvation can be lost. See here: “4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once *been enlightened* ((*Believers* are enlightened by the Spirit. 2 Cor 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)) , who have *tasted* ((same Greek word (Strongs 1089) used here: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should *taste death* for every man.)) the heavenly gift, and have *shared in the Holy Spirit**,((The Holy Spirit is a seal upon true believers. Has anyone outside of Christ "shared in the Holy Spirit"?)) 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away ((If they were never saved, what exactly did they "fall away" from? If you were never on the true ground of salvation, you can't fall away from it. You can't fall from something that you've never reached)), to restore (("restore" means they were truly there)) them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again ((His crucifiction was effectual for them, that's why it says "again")) the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.)) Fit's in perfectly with John 15:2-6 2 Every branch **in me* ((IN CHRIST, only the truely saved are in Christ)) that does not bear fruit he *takes away* (("takes away" from what? From being IN CHRIST)), and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide ((remain)) in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide ((remain)) in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. ((Just like Hebrews 6:8))
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You really need to break the above into paragraphs.
It would be easier to read and therefore easier to respond to.

My assumption is that you posted the above as you agree with Shawn Mann that OASA is doctrine is false and that God showed him this.

Firstly one has to indentify what they consider the doctrine of OSAS in order to qualify it with scripture.

Secondly there are many scriptures that can be used that Jesus will lose none given to him.

Thirdly he talks about fruit. If unfruitful then salvation is lost.
No mention of faith here.
A person can have faith yet at times be unfaithful.

As we know and I'm sure we can agree on, is that this an issue where people disagree.
It's age long and will be until Jesus comes back.

And I assume like me you have researched yourself to come to your own conclusions rather then listen to anothers interpretation just like I have.

But one thing I'm conscious of and will always bang my drum about.

Never ever ever be a fruit inspector.
Never judge a person as one who seems to have walked away from Jesus and therefore lost salvation.

I stopped going to church for a long time.
I never lost my faith in Jesus.
I lost my faith in the church and it's judgemental members.
I was a hurt broken person who needed healing from hurts and pains of my past.

A person like me who was written off is now posting to you.

At the end of the day Jesus will judge, not us.

If fruit is works and works are fruit then they will judged and given a reward or burned up, BUT those who have faith in the risen Lord will be saved.

The below is not my words.

This does not mean that perseverance in the faith
is a condition for salvation.​
Rather,​
perseverance in the faith is understood
as the mark of those who are saved.​

Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal 1. Spring 1996 p136
 
BillG

BillG

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FollowHisSteps said:
So many verses taken out of context to push a false message not of God.
Thankfully God has provided more than enough verses to clearly demonstrate for every misunderstanding to be put into context.
Click to expand...
That is true.

But one person's context is not the same as another's.

Then what?
 
U

UnderGrace

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FollowHisSteps said:
So many verses taken out of context to push a false message not of God.
Thankfully God has provided more than enough verses to clearly demonstrate for every misunderstanding to be put into context.
Click to expand...
I think you mean God and Greek philosophy:D
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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eternally-gratefull said:
Sometimes people just can not understand what your saying because of what they have been taught.
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Or like a bull seeeing red.....they seen the words "Peddling the Holy Spirt" and did not read the rest........and the context obviously dictates what I was saying and was not saying.......they read the word the same way......seeing what they want to see instead of what context dictates!!!
 
A

Argueless

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dcontroversal said:
Amen.....any gospel that detracts any Glory from Christ while placing emphasis upon self, works, and or one's deeds or ability to do x, y and or z is not of God!!
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PennEd said:
I think it's time we start a pool predicting post #100,000. You have to say the day and the start of the hour it will happen.

I'll say tax day April 15th midnight! So 12:00 am to 1:00 am.

Closest gets 10 free posts to kick off the next 100,000.
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So my question to dcon is this, is it of God to detract the glory from Christ by creating disagreements, division and hatred for the opposing sides for the very purpose of reaching a certain goal, a hidden agenda behind all this roller coaster fun ride...and who gets all the glory?

One thing is for sure. If you will not stop, God is able to do anything and He sees our hearts.

...“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. The Wise and Foolish Builders “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:43-46 A Tree and Its Fruit

...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” Luke 3:9

...See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12:25
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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#95,795
I've already given reference to Rom7:1-4 (re: "fruit unto God" and how that comes about), as well as Phil1:11 and Heb13:20-21 (same).

Here is another couple of passages:

2 Corinthians 3 -

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech

[and]

Romans 8:2-4,9 -

2 For the law of the Spirit of LIFE IN Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF the law might be fulfilled IN us [note: not BY us], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[…]

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


["the righteousness OF the law" is not saying "the law" itself--see also Rom2:26 for this same phrase, where there it is speaking of those who were not given "the law" nor were "under it"]
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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gb9 said:
one last time- the greek word for sin is hamartia.

the basic meaning-missing the mark, a fault and / or a failure, whatever is not of God.

also, a ethical failure in thought or feeling or deed or speech.

so, while to walk just as He walked is our goal, we would have to not ever do any of the above to truthfully ( if you care about truth) say that we do.
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Amen.....the two following quotes were made with righteous, saved me on the planet at the time they were made....

There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not

There is none good, but God

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceived and the truth is not in us

He that is without sin cast the first stone

All.our righteousnessess are as filthy rags and our iniquities like the wind have taken us a way

Even Daniel, that was listed as one of three men that could deliver himself by his own righteousness IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, IS FOUND CONFESSING HIS SINS.......
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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PennEd said:
I think it's time we start a pool predicting post #100,000. You have to say the day and the start of the hour it will happen.

I'll say tax day April 15th midnight! So 12:00 am to 1:00 am.

Closest gets 10 free posts to kick off the next 100,000.
Click to expand...
ahahhahhahahah.....love it
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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LW97 said:
Once Saved Always Saved? by Shawn Mann I repeat what God has shown me in scripture: that OSAS is proven false by verses such as John 15:2.
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Wrong again Daffy Duck......God does not deal with temporal life and all the following must be lies or fail for salvation to be lost..

Christ is clear, the promises are clear, chastening, why and who is clear....

I WILL LOSE NOTHING is clear

I WILL NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE is clear

I WILL LEAVE THE 99 TO FIND THE ONE THAY WANDERS IS CLEAR

KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD IS CLEAR

CHRIST BEGINS, FINISHES AND COMPLETES THE WORK OF FAITH IS CLEAR

SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION IS CLEAR

IN BOTH THE FATHER'S HAND AND CHRIST'S HAND IS CLEAR

IRREVOCABLE AS APPLIED TO THE GIFTS AND CALLING IS CLEAR

ETERNAL LIFE IS CLEAR

EVERLASTING LIFE IS CLEAR

SANCTIFIED FOREVER IS CLEAR

IS NOT CONDEMNED IS CLEAR

GRACE OUTBOUNDING SIN IS CLEAR

PERFECT AND AORIST TENSE VERBS ARE CLEAR

INCORRUPTIBLE SEED IS CLEAR

The bible does not contradict itself....for salvation to be losable ALL OF THE ABOVE MUST BE FALSE, LIES or REJECTED.....and thay was just off the top of my head at 745 Am in Australia with no coffee yet.....there are no verses in context that teach a losable salvation.....and to boot, any salvation that can be lost totally detracts from GLORY GOING TO CHRIST AND PLACES US AND WHAT WE DO AT THE HELM..........to be frank, in my view it is satanic to devalue all the above and say I MUST KEEP MY SALVATION BY WHAT I DO or DON'T do...........

Reward comes from MITSHOS AND EQUALS PAY OR WAGES....AFTER WE ARE BKRN AGAIN FROM ABOVE BY INCORRUPRIBLE SEED our walk or lack thereof is now REWARDED and or CHASTENED depending on WHAT WE DO OR DO NOT DO! SALVATION IS SECURE REGARDLESS because it is based upon WHAT CHRIST DOES AND HAS DONE!
 
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