Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%

  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%

  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • Total voters
    53
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garee

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PennEd said:
Where in Hebrews 11 does it say everybody has faith? It specifically says in Thessalonians that not all have faith.


Speaking of birth. YOU had ZERO say in your physical conception and birth. You had NO free will in it at all. So why would you think you had any say on your Spiritual birth? Especially since God tells us in John 1:12-13 it was by NO MAN'S WILL did anyone decide to be His child. It was by HIS Will alone.
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Exactly .Previously we had no faith (none) as in unbelief that could please God or you could say we had "no mercy" by which we could hear and believe.

Romans 11:31-33 King James Version (KJV) Even so have these also now not believed (no faith ), that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, (faithless) that he might have mercy upon all. (that do belive) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

The faith of God our faithful Creator is the work of him having mercy. If others remain in unbelief (no faith).It would not make the faith of God's work without effect .Roman 3:3-4 To effect something is to work it out

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. ....(None nada )

Roman 3:3-4 For what if some did not believe? (no faith) shall their unbelief make the faith of (coming from) God without effect?God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

The word it in the phrase as it is written represent the work of His faith working in us to both will and perform. Without it doing its unseen work no man could believe unto salvation.

From my experience many do not want to attribute the work of (again coming from) Christ's faith, to Christ. But rather they make it our work of believing that we have towards him.

Its a two way street first he works in us giving us His faith then being born again we offer our new faith towards him. The faithless Jews simply turned it upside down .taking away the faith or work of God's understanding.'
 
Dino246

Dino246

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garee said:
To effect something is to work it out
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No, to effect something is to bring it about. To affect something is to change it. Neither means "work it out". That would be "solve" or "resolve" or "accomplish".
 
G

garee

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7seasrekeyed said:

it's called choice get over it
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I would think should we get under it. His power that works in us

The faithless turn it upside down. It's His choice. Not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride.

Why murmur as if it was of (coming from) us as selfish pride?

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed (His workmanship the new creation)) say of him that framed it,(us) He had "no understanding?"

For by grace are ye saved through faith; (Christ's work) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, (that we perform) lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, (that framed) created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2: 8-10

Why turn it upside down and in the end take away His understanding?
 
G

garee

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Dino246 said:
No, to effect something is to bring it about. To affect something is to change it. Neither means "work it out". That would be "solve" or "resolve" or "accomplish".
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Thanks, its affect as a work His faith. Effect would be. . and it was good.

We can look to our faithful Creator's work of faith in creation. By faith believing something would a appear as a work God, God pronounced the words. . . let it be and there it was form. After each work of his faith he would pronounce the effect .It was good.

God not seen creating a work of His faith... the things seen And it was very good.

Good is the invisible signature of God. He will not share that with the things seen.

When the Son of man was accused of standing in the good holy unseen place of God's faith.. He gave glory to the unseen father and said one is good, God. We walk by the faith of Christ. This is not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride..
 
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ForestGreenCook

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notuptome said:
Why do you want me to deny the truth? You cannot believe in what you do not know. Why is simple you believe because you understand.

God has said you are a sinner. God has said that the wage of sin is death. You know and understand that if you are a sinner God has you under condemnation or death. You learn that Christ has paid your sin debt for you. You understand that you cannot save your self so you come to Christ and receive forgiveness from Him.

Why some or many refuse to receive is simple. Pride in their own righteousness. The reject God's standard of perfection and count their own righteousness worthy of acceptance. Just like Cain. The illustration of the Pharisees and Sadducees are example of the same.

Grace is never merited and it is harder for those who see themselves as religious or self righteous to reject their pride and humble themselves to Christ. Knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

Tares endeavor to overwhelm the wheat.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Do you believe and understand 1 Cor 2:14?
 
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ForestGreenCook

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notuptome said:
I'm illustrating a comparison between 2 Thess 3:2 and Heb 11:1. All men have faith but the object of the faith is the controlling factor. You say God gifts faith and in some sense that can be true. Scripture teaches that saving faith comes through the word of God. It is available to all and great are the rewards for those who find it.

I cannot tell you why you were born into this world and I cannot tell you when you will die. I can tell you what God has said in His word. I cannot make you believe it. I can tell you of the consequences of your choice. No man can escape the responsibility to make the choice of believing or not believing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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You cannot eliminate 1 Cor 2:14.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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notuptome said:
Your position is inconsistent with scripture. Not all have saving faith but all have faith.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You did not have a choice to come into this world and you have little choice of when you exit this world. You do have a choice in where you spend your eternity.

You have a testimony of believing in Christ and I this I do rejoice. To say you had no but choice to believe is not entirely accurate. You were not forced to believe. By your standard of sovereignty God could have done it but His word tells us that is not how God has chosen to save men. He saves them through the foolishness of preaching.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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But only his sheep can understand the preaching of the gospel of the things of the Spirit.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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garee said:
Thanks, its affect as a work His faith. Effect would be. . and it was good.
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NO! :rolleyes:

"Affect" is always a VERB, not a noun!


garee said:
We can look to our faithful Creator's work of faith in creation. By faith believing something would a appear as a work God, God pronounced the words. . . let it be and there it was form. After each work of his faith he would pronounce the effect .It was good.
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God CREATED; it wasn't a "work of faith", it was a work of CREATION.

garee said:
When the Son of man was accused of standing in the good holy unseen place of God's faith.. He gave glory to the unseen father and said one is good, God.
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Jesus was NEVER "accused of standing in the good holy unseen place of God's faith". Where do you get this hogwash?

STOP grossly misquoting the Bible!
 
G

garee

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God CREATED; it wasn't a "work of faith", it was a work of CREATION.
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Work according to whose faith? It was the work of our Faithfull and True Creator also called His labor of love.

Can't separate the plan of belief (faith) from the outcome. "let there be nothing and nothing was good.

It would be like separation of the spirit essence of life from the body.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James2:26

Whose work of faith labor of love worked in both Rahab and Abraham as a imputed righteousness? If not the faith of Christ?

Was it of their own selves?

Dead things cannot move without spirit life.

You make it sound like God does not have or need faith in order to perform His good works?

Faith is a work . Pitting James 2 against Paul surely will not work out.

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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notuptome said:
It is by His will that those who believe will be saved. All men have faith just many do not have saving faith. All men believe in something not many believe in Jesus Christ. Many are called few are chosen. Few choose Christ in spite of the evidence that surrounds them.

I could not more will my physical birth than I can will my Spiritual birth. I receive both by the mercy of God. Created by Him and for His pleasure and glory.

Fof the cause of Christ
Roger
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Well of course ALL men have faith in something! Some have faith in themselves to attain Salvation through various religions, all of which rely on some type of works THEY do, some have faith that there is nothing to have faith in. No God. They have faith that this life is all there is.

So obviously, this discussion is about "saving faith" in Jesus Christ. NOT all men have been gifted with that faith.
 
G

garee

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Jesus was NEVER "accused of standing in the good holy unseen place of God's faith". Where do you get this hogwash?
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God is not a man as us. Where do you get that hogwash?

Matthew 19:1 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The Son of man, Jesus refused to stand in the holy unseen place of the hidden glory of God. The abomination of desolation.

We walk by faith not after what the eyes see.

How many are good?
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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PennEd said:
Just because it's "my" faith, doesn't mean it wasn't given to me as a gift from God. I recognize EVERYTHING I have, all my abilities, my family, and ANYTHING else good you can possibly imagine, is a gift from God.
James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
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Right, the gift of faith by the Holy Spirit speaks after the conversion, the faith which is also seen as one of the fruit of the Holy Spirit is after our conversion experience. If so, then Satan has it, but it’s not. Simon the sorcerer should have been really saved, but it’s not. James speaks of every good and perfect gift, our ‘abilities’ aren’t perfect, our families have shortcomings and anything else fails except the God-given gift of Christ and the Holy Spirit. None is good except God hence, the giving of Christ, the giving of the Holy Spirit. Regards to salvation in the context of James, it is God’s will that we are begotten by the word of truth which is the engrafted word when one receives it.

Here’s the difference, you believe God gives you the faith with which to believe, but I believe, God gives me the truth in his word which I must receive.

Ephesians 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
PennEd

PennEd

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fredoheaven said:
Right, the gift of faith by the Holy Spirit speaks after the conversion, the faith which is also seen as one of the fruit of the Holy Spirit is after our conversion experience. If so, then Satan has it, but it’s not. Simon the sorcerer should have been really saved, but it’s not. James speaks of every good and perfect gift, our ‘abilities’ aren’t perfect, our families have shortcomings and anything else fails except the God-given gift of Christ and the Holy Spirit. None is good except God hence, the giving of Christ, the giving of the Holy Spirit. Regards to salvation in the context of James, it is God’s will that we are begotten by the word of truth which is the engrafted word when one receives it.

Here’s the difference, you believe God gives you the faith with which to believe, but I believe, God gives me the truth in his word which I must receive.

Ephesians 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
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Why did you receive it? How did you know His Word was truth?
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
But w/o His death(also life, burial, and resurrection) there is no bride. :)
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I would think, 'sacrifice' is a better way to relate death. But when we say love is giving an endearment, care something like couples are doing. Umm... you mean no death, no bride, seems needs me to think this analogy.:confused:
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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PennEd said:
Why did you receive it? How did you know His Word was truth?
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How do I know His word is truth? Because scripture itself says it. I believe it.

Why did I receive it? Because it is the truth. for in them, we know we have eternal life. For in the scripture of truth, we grow in the knowledge of our Lord and wisdom, understanding are found in it.

God bless
 
J

John146

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fredoheaven said:
How do I know His word is truth? Because scripture itself says it. I believe it.

Why did I receive it? Because it is the truth. for in them, we know we have eternal life. For in the scripture of truth, we grow in the knowledge of our Lord and wisdom, understanding are found in it.

God bless
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1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
 
J

John146

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PennEd said:
Why did you receive it? How did you know His Word was truth?
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I read somewhere that if a person does receive the Lord Jesus by age 13, the chances that person ever believes is very, very low. Why? Innocence is gone, mind is corrupted by the world.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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fredoheaven said:
How do I know His word is truth? Because scripture itself says it. I believe it.

Why did I receive it? Because it is the truth. for in them, we know we have eternal life. For in the scripture of truth, we grow in the knowledge of our Lord and wisdom, understanding are found in it.

God bless
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I'm sorry. I don't understand how you can think this is an answer. It is circular reasoning.

Scripture says it's Truth. And you believe it is Truth. But what makes you believe it is Truth?

WHY, do you believe it is Truth?
 
G

garee

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fredoheaven said:
Right, the gift of faith by the Holy Spirit speaks after the conversion, the faith which is also seen as one of the fruit of the Holy Spirit is after our conversion experience. If so, then Satan has it, but it’s not. Simon the sorcerer should have been really saved, but it’s not. James speaks of every good and perfect gift, our ‘abilities’ aren’t perfect, our families have shortcomings and anything else fails except the God-given gift of Christ and the Holy Spirit. None is good except God hence, the giving of Christ, the giving of the Holy Spirit. Regards to salvation in the context of James, it is God’s will that we are begotten by the word of truth which is the engrafted word when one receives it.

Here’s the difference, you believe God gives you the faith with which to believe, but I believe, God gives me the truth in his word which I must receive.

Ephesians 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
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There is no difference. God gives us his truth as His faith. It as it is written (the law of faith) works in our hearts so that we can beleive. A person cannot receive the faith of Christ unless he first gives us ears to hear ..

Not faith in Christ the after affect.

If they are dead in there trespasses and sin without hope and God in this present word. How could they hear and then seek after Him who has no form? As in all things he must do the first works .

If we were to accredit the gift of faith to our ownself (imagination of one hard heart) then we have blasphemed the holy name by which we are called as His faith does work.

My opinion in (parenthesis)

if we refuse to obey the commandment in verse 1 then the rest of the chapter loses its value

James 2:1 (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of ("coming from". . not in "towards" ) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (ones own self or what the eyes see.)

The end of the matter..

James 2:7 (KJV)7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
 
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