Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

I do not post or look to show anything. Jesus said a perverted and adulterous generation seeks a sign, I am not of that clan. I am of the ones Jesus said Sign and wonders would follow them that Believe, confirming the word of God. Go out and do your own to the glory of God. Stop trying to have other prove your doubt LOL

I do not post or look to show anything. Jesus said a perverted and adulterous generation seeks a sign, I am not of that clan. I am of the ones Jesus said Sign and wonders would follow them that Believe, confirming the word of God. Go out and do your own to the glory of God. Stop trying to have other prove your doubt LOL

wish the cessationists would find a new hobby

never anything postive

just negative negative negative with petty displays of anger and saying prove it to me or else

childish mouthing off

all about what they think, what they have seen but if anyone posts what they have seen, what God has done, back they come with prove it and show it to us

they say they believe in God whom they have never seen and believe that Jesus was raised from the dead

but they have never seen Jesus either

quiet perplexing

More of the same old stuff. Poor old Pentecostals. Nobody loves them and nobody cares for them. Woe is they misery on misery.

I would be careful about they have never seen Jesus either as that could be taken the wrong way.

Pr 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

No such thing as praying in tongues ever taught in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Paul was mistaken huh?
Get a bible friend.

wish the cessationists would find a new hobby

never anything postive

just negative negative negative with petty displays of anger and saying prove it to me or else

childish mouthing off

all about what they think, what they have seen but if anyone posts what they have seen, what God has done, back they come with prove it and show it to us

they say they believe in God whom they have never seen and believe that Jesus was raised from the dead

but they have never seen Jesus either

quiet perplexing

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)

But there are those cases. There was that guy on 'Real People' in the '70's or '80's who comes to mind who'd lost an eye. There were a number of rather dramatic healings in the 1950's, too. The US seems to be a little drier for healing these days. Maybe it has to do with people relying on the medical profession as a first course of action. Reports of some of the more dramatic healings seem to come from the developing world.



I'd probably heard people talk about God healing them growing up, but when I was a child, I went to school and church with a girl who had severely crossed eyes and wore glasses that magnified the way her eyes looked many times over. An evangelist at church laid hands on her, and she was healed. I spoke with her before school one morning about it. It was very clear she had been healed. She could see normally and did not wear the giant glasses. Her eyes were not crossed.



It's a little dilemma if you want to pray for whoever needs it. What do you do with the leg length issue? I've read that over 40% of the population has one leg longer than the other. If it is a miniscule difference, we wouldn't notice it, but the bigger the difference, the more it can cause hip pain, back pain, and other issues.

So if you wanted to minister to someone like this and watch their leg grow back because you believed it was going to happen, what do you do? Do you say, sorry, I don't pray for that or lay hands on people for that, since that healing can be faked too easily?

I wish Pentecostals would quit running under the bed to hide every time a sincere person asks them to publicly verify these miraculous signs. BTW.....I am no cessationist. God can dispense power for signs any time anywhere to anybody. I for one would be thrilled to see verified sign gifts. Nevertheless......there is ZERO reason to believe that they are operating today, and 100% reason to believe Pentecostals are faking it.

So pls redeem yourself and your Church by posting these "tongues" videos.

That is the problem with post like this LOL they start with a blanket and cover all with their own personal experience and use it as gospel truth. I did not se any scriptural references only a personal opinion and long one at that.


The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today and all Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing in the word of God says they have stopped. If you can prove that statement wrong with the word of God I will be happy to listen. Yet you know more about a guy named Randy white than I do and I am Pentecostal and I have never heard of him. Maybe because he is in error ? And if you know it then call him and correct him. AS the word of God says to do.

I do believe God heals according to his sovereign will, upon the prayers of elders in his church. It isn't a guarantee, though, because God has purposes higher than us in regards to suffering.

And, those that claim that believers don't suffer sometimes to further their sanctification are, simply, liars.

Therefore, I view all Word of Faith people as potential liars, because Scripture clearly teaches this principle.

You should quote the whole section there:

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.

Peter did not say he had no part in this matter because he was not an apostles, but because his heart was not right before God. Later, we see that elders laid hands on Timothy, who received a gift through prophecy. Timothy was warned to lay hands on no man suddenly. You seem to read the word 'only' into passages where it does not exist. It would be foolish to read this passage and conclude that the Spirit was imparted exclusively through the laying on of the apostles hands, because it does not say so, and implies something different, and there are other scriptures that contradict that idea, as I pointed out in the part you quoted.

Do you see a blank spot on the screen where those scriptures are quoted? Do the verses disappear from your mind as soon as you read them?

I think Randy White is Paula White's ex husband. So, apparently you know him. You know, the woman who was married 3 different times. Personally, I have issues with charismatics who have multiple marriages too. That gives me some idea of their trustworthiness.

A Christian is supposed to have ONE wife or husband. I haven't been married, but if I was, it would be only one spouse, unless there was immorality or desertion.

Todd White is a chunky, dreadlocks wearing dude who goes around and finds bums and vagrants to "heal", claiming they have one leg longer than the other. He then wriggles their shoe heal down to make it look like he lengthen their leg. Many of them look to me to be simpletons, drug users, and drunks, and may be high when this occurs. You can see his videos on Youtube, and he is a very popular "healer" lately. He usually grasps the person's head and says "God loves you"...that's the extent of his gospel preaching.

Regarding "tongues", I will ask you, assuming you are Pentecostal or charismatic, does your church only allow ONE person to speak in tongues at a time, and is it ALWAYS accompanied by an interpretation?

If not then it is fake tongues. So, we don't have anything to talk about if your church practices fake tongues.

And then you go on to talk about flopping on the floor and acting crazily. I've rarely heard or seen Charismatics claim cessationists believe the Bible is a part of the trinity, if at all. 'Doesn't believe in the gifts'-- I've probably heard that. It's inaccurate-- doesn't believe some gifts operate now is more accurate, usually. Though there are cessationists who will claim there is no more charismata. This is a rather bleak and ignorant position, IMO, since teaching, exhortation, and service are gifts. I suppose they think we are left with only carnal energies to work for God, or just haven't thought it through. But that is not a typical position.

I have known Charismatics who seemed to think it was spiritual to shake and act weird. There was a movement of that in the early 1990's. Be that as it may, there are things in scripture like priests not being able to minister when the kavod of God was present, or the soldiers falling down or Daniel being weak after a visionary experience. If you were praying with someone and that person fell down, would you be out of order?

The vast majority of Pentecostal churches I've been in have not had people shake or flop around. That's not the norm.

As far as disorder goes, I spent many years in the Assemblies of God (A/G) growing up and I went to an independant 'full gospel' church for many years. Someone would speak out in tongues, and another would interpret. One of the churches i attended (we moved quite a bit) had teaching against just speaking in tongues without interpretation. I just considered that an odd Charismatic practice. Some of the Charismatic groups, particularly WOF, seem to take one verse or two out of I Corinthians 14 about speaking in tongues and how edifying it is to the individual, but I wonder if they never study out the whole chapter. Other churches don't do that.

Now some of the Pentecostal churches, particularly the ones that started in the Appalachian region had been Holiness churches before the Azusa Street Revival, and they had a custom of everyone praying at the same time when they prayed. Maybe it had to do with Acts 4 where they prayed. I've heard that used as an argument, that they prayed at the same time. In the A/G churches I grew up in, I didn't see that. Some of the churches that pray at the same time do that in tongues, too, and take Paul's words in I Corinthians about interpretation just to apply to messages spoken out to the congregation, and some of the A/Gs do that too, apparently.



Historically, Pentecostals understood 'tongues' to be languages. I found The Apostolic Faith newsletter from the early 1900's, and there many testimonies of people identifying tongues as languages they knew. Someone who was there said that is what drew the crowds, with people hearing their own languages 'in tongues.' There are many accounts of this in the A/G also, with the missionaries. One missionary was trying to decide how to transliterate Jesus' name in the target language in the Bible when he was on furlough in the US, and he heard someone speak in tongues in that language and use one of the pronunciations he was considering. I haven't experienced it myself, but I have known several people who have either spoken in tongues and someone understood the language or heard a language they knew 'in tongues.'

Of course, I think most Pentecostals who consider such things and the teaching of scripture would allow for speaking in tongues to be 'tongues of angels.'

From what I have read, the early Charismatics in the US had the same understanding of what tongues is. Some linguists have labeled some kind of artificial language as 'glossalalia'. Some Christians use that term without knowing it is meant to mean a fake language, since it is made of terms used in the Biblical passages. I am not sure where the idea of tongues as some kind of spiritual language no one understands came in as a teaching. Maybe it's WOF. I think there are also academic theologians who want to embrace the glossalalia concept, (as opposed to xenoglossia, though glossalalia is made of words form the passage) who have promoted the idea of nonlanguage tongues. There are also liberals, one commentator from Germany, for example, who thought the actual speaking in tongues in Corinth was identical to what pagans did. This may also influence theologians.



Paul has a list of people who have different gifts starting with first apostles, then prophets, then teaching, then miracles, then gifts of healings...(I Corinthians 12:28.)

That implies people who are not apostles or prophets heal.



The foundation is not part of the building? That's like saying water is not wet. I suppose you wouldn't mind if someone removed the foundation from your house if it is not a part of it, then. If apostles and prophets are part of the foundation, that is not the same as saying all are.

In another metaphor, Paul, and apostle laid foundations. The found of Christ no doubt had been laid in Jerusalem decades before, but Paul still laid a new foundation in Corinth. A house can have foundations continually laid if it expands sideways and not just up. If you want to add a nursery to a one-story house, you'd need to dig a foundation for it.

Historically, there are records that support ongoing prophecy in the second and third centuries. There is evidence for prophesying being done in church meetings in the second century. Apparently, liturgy was embraced instead of actually obeying the scriptural commands for church meetings. Not that liturgy is necessarily bad, but ignoring what was specifically commanded is.
planted.

It still says what it says.

And apparently you have a difficulty comprehending that. You don't seem to realize that you are eisegeting and idea that contradicts other scripture.

I already pointed out there are churches that do interpret tongues and don't go for tongues without interpretation, praying in tongues en masse, etc. But the Corinthians were being disorderly with their gifts. You wouldn't say their gifts were false, would you? Doesn't I Corinthians prove that Christians could be disorderly with genuine gifts?

And secondly, if Paul says for the church to let one who speaks in tongues speak and let one interpret, then the churches who do not allow the one to speak in tongues and the one to interpret, what do we say of them? Why wouldn't you call such churches disobedient also? The solution to this is for us all to be obedient. That includes being orderly. But forbidding letting 'the prophets speak two or three," and letting 'the other judge' is not decent or in order either.

If they disobey the Lord in one area, your response should not be to support disobedience in another. How is cessationism consistent with obeying the order of I Corinthians 14? When it interacts with someone with the gift of tongues or prophecy who wants to use the gifts, then that's a situation ripe for disobedience. Paul said to forbid not to speak with tongues. Speaking in tongues should be done in order, but forbidding it from being done in the proper order is disobedience, also.

I suppose cessationists want us to believe the way the Holy Spirit interacts with the church changed without any real warning for scripture, and that the way we are supposed to conduct church meetings just suddenly changed, leaving us with little to no scripture about how to do church, and leaving the scriptures about church order obselete. Why include all that in the New Testament if it was only good for the immediate audience and those who lived a few decades afterwards?



I understand that and share your concern. On an emotional level, I can see why that would make one wary of these Charismatics. On an intellectual level, I do not see why that is a reason for rejecting spiritual gifts.



Let's say you were an atheist and you witnessed this. Someone said Jesus raised the dead. Would you conclude that Jesus did not raise the dead because you saw people like this?

As far as raising the dead goes, I wouldn't dismiss such claims out of hand, claims of miracles including resurrection of the dead. I would be suspicious of someone who sleeps around then makes spiritual claims.

There are actually academic articles on miracles. I've come across some of this stuff on Google Scholar. I need to order Craig Keener's Miracles when I get some other reading and work done. You may want to read that book. I hear it is good and I've heard a little about the content.

Paul mentions praying in tongues. I don't see where he actually says it is superior. Associating it with 'groanings which cannot be uttered' in Romans 8 never made sense to me because tongues were spoken as the Spirit gave utterance. I think some of these teachings thrive on a lack of vocabulary-- like not knowing what 'utter means.' It's kind of like some of the teachings on blaspheming the Holy Spirit thriving on people not knowing the meaning of 'blaspheme.' That has given Augustine's teaching some legs with some Americans.


There are some people who make prophecies that just aren't right. There were also large numbers of such people at certain times in the Old Testament. What was it, 400 court prophets prophesying good things about Ahab's battles to one Micaiah? And there was Jeremiah also. If you lived then, would you conclude that all prophets were false?

It seems to me from scripture and personal experience that most prophecies aren't directly about the future.

There is also Jeremiah 18 and the book of Jonah. In Jeremiah 18, if evil is decreed for a city or nation and the city or nation repents, the LORD will relent of the evil for that city or nation. If building up and planting is decreed for a city or nation and that nation does evil, the LORD will relent of the city being built up and

First, I would like some clarification on whether you think all believers should speak in tongues, because my understanding is that AOG teaches this. I am not positive, though.

That's a major issue I have with Pentecostals and charismatics. Some of them believe that if you don't speak in tongues you are some inferior believer who is not fully actuated.

My point is that cessationists believe that the foundation are Christ and the apostles, and their gifts were associated with their witness as authoritative teachers within the Church. Christ's gifts, in particular, showed that the Kingdom of God was already here, and that the Curse was being reversed. His signs proved that he was, in essence, the Serpent-crusher who was rolling back the effects of Adam's sin.

Third, I was part of a cult where the founder claimed to be an apostle and prophet. I view ALL such contemporary claims to be false, and to be reflective of a vain, prideful man.

Fourth, maybe your sect is more reasonable, but surely you must know that wild behavior happens ALL THE TIME in Pentecostal/charismatic sects. I have watched videos of various charismatic/Pentecostal congregations where these things occur. And, numerous individuals have told me personally about them.

I know two different people who claimed to raise corpses. Of course, they can't produce the proof, but that is their claim. Perhaps, though, you really don't know people like this. If all your church does is speaks in tongues in order, one at a time and providing interpretation, I really can't discuss much with you. I wouldn't actually have such a problem with that. But, I don't believe that is the norm. I think the norm is a wild, frenzied blabbering of many individuals at once, some running up and down the aisles, collapsing on the floor, etcetera. But, maybe your circle is different.