Unconstitutional

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#1
If any form of government, being it city, state, or national establishes a law that says it is against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. If the Preacher who was arrested and put in jail in Florida was to file a lawsuit, He would win. What do you think?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#2
The church choir that met in Washington now has 16 ill and 2 dead. Where does wisdom enter the picture? Should the choir director be held liable?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
#3
If any form of government, being it city, state, or national establishes a law that says it is against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. If the Preacher who was arrested and put in jail in Florida was to file a lawsuit, He would win. What do you think?
There are instances when our constitutional rights may be temporarily set aside. Trying to quell a pandemic is apparently one of those instances.

On another note, a few years ago a militant Muslim wanted to wear a hijab while having her drivers license photo taken. The state where this took place did not allow it. The Muslim took that state to court and lost. The state won because it was deemed a security issue and that took precedence.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#4
funny how a virus...any virus...doesn't pack the constitution while it travels from person to person

ARE YOU JUST KIDDING ME?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,598
17,062
113
69
Tennessee
#5
If any form of government, being it city, state, or national establishes a law that says it is against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. If the Preacher who was arrested and put in jail in Florida was to file a lawsuit, He would win. What do you think?
It was not against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it was against the law to assemble, period. I believe that all the corona regulations to inhibit spread of the virus may come under the martial law provisions in the US Constitution

The preacher would lose in the US Supreme Court. What the preacher did was reckless and needlessly increased the risk of those in attendance of transmitting and becoming infected with the virus. Those in attendance were foolish to attend and by their actions may transmit the virus to those they come into contact with in public.

I don't like these restrictions either but do know that they are temporary, necessary, and for the good of the public. This too shall pass.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
#7
If any form of government, being it city, state, or national establishes a law that says it is against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. If the Preacher who was arrested and put in jail in Florida was to file a lawsuit, He would win. What do you think?
Whether the person 'won' or not, would be irrelevant in regards the Constitution of the united States, and its lawful Amendments, such as the first amendment:


1st Amendment 01 - Establishing Religion.jpg 1st Amendment 02 - Prohibiting Exercise.jpg 1st Amendment 03 - Freedom Of Speech.jpg 1st Amendment 04 - Freedom Of Press.jpg 1st Amendment 05 - Right To Assembly.jpg

Basically, what I am saying, is, that the Constitution (otuS) and it's lawful Amendments superceded any such proceedings of trial. In fact, the arrest, jailing, fining, and trial itself would be illegal according to those two documents.

See also - https://archive.org/details/endtime...eyondthegravesisterili720p30fpsh264128kbitaac

Jump to time index 5:30 and minimally listen to the Q n A section, about 10 minutes or so.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
13,797
113
#8
Why is this thread in the Bible Discussion Forum? It doesn't belong here.
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
4,061
3,175
113
#9
If any form of government, being it city, state, or national establishes a law that says it is against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. If the Preacher who was arrested and put in jail in Florida was to file a lawsuit, He would win. What do you think?
So basically you took a non-religious issue that happened to affect a religious gathering and twisted it into religious persecution. That is dishonest and deceptive.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#10
If any form of government, being it city, state, or national establishes a law that says it is against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. If the Preacher who was arrested and put in jail in Florida was to file a lawsuit, He would win. What do you think?
Not necessarily. There are instances for national security.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
113
#11
The government must provide proof that national security interests really are in play—that is, the government cannot simply use national security as a blank check to sidestep constitutional challenges.

It must be a legit danger just as they took Japanese Americans and isolated them after Pearl Harbor.
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,344
530
113
#12
If any form of government, being it city, state, or national establishes a law that says it is against the law to assemble for the purpose of worshiping God, it would be contrary to the constitution of the United States. If the Preacher who was arrested and put in jail in Florida was to file a lawsuit, He would win. What do you think?
Paul (through the Holy Spirit) said obey government (which God has ordained for your protection) so it will go well with you. Rom. 13
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
#14
Paul (through the Holy Spirit) said obey government (which God has ordained for your protection) so it will go well with you. Rom. 13
“If there is a Governmental Law that breaches the Constitution otuS and the lawful Amendments, doesn’t Romans 13 teach we are to not resist that Law, but to obey it, for otherwise it would be to resist God?”

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers (authorities). For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” – Romans 13:1 KJB​
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” – Matthew 28:18 KJB​
“Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.” – Romans 13:2 KJB​
“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:” – Romans 13:3 KJB​
“For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” – Romans 13:4 KJB​
“Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.” – Romans 13:5 KJB​
“For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.” – Romans 13:6 KJB​
“Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.” – Romans 13:7 KJB​

God’s word says we are to Fear Him above all:
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man (Hebrew: Adam).” – Ecclesiastes 12:13 KJB​

Honour God above all:
“Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith … them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.”​
– 1 Samuel 2:30 KJB​
Honour thy father (above; Mat. 6:9 KJB) and thy mother (above; Gal. 4:26 KJB): that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.” – Exodus 20:12 KJB​

Honour God’ commandments above the commandments of men:
“The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” – Isaiah 42:21 KJB​
“If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:” – Isaiah 58:13 KJB​
“Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” – Acts 5:29 KJB​

What about the text which says to Honour the King?

“Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.” – 1 Peter 2:17 KJB​

Notice that the text in context (1 Pet. 2:16-17 KJB) says, “… as the servants of GodFear God …”

God comes first, before human kings, authorities and laws.

God is the KING of Kings. He is the supreme King above all kings, thrones, dominions, principalities and powers:

“KING of Kings” (1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14, 19:16 KJB)

Also, for those who live in the united States, the “President” (or Supreme Court, Senate or House) is not a “King”, but is (or supposed to be) a duly elected representative of the people in the Executive Branch of Government, subject to the people, subject to the united States Constitution and its proper Amendments.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” – 1st Amendment of the united States Constitution (highest human authority).​

Notice these words:

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.” – Hosea 8:4 KJB​
Who gave their power (authority) to the Beast?

“… the dragon gave him (the Beast, Rev. 13:1 KJB) his power, and his seat, and great authority.” – Revelation 13:2 KJB​

Why? Because the Beast (Rev. 13:1 KJB) worships the Dragon (Rev. 12:1 KJB):

“And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.” – Luke 4:6-7 KJB​

What about, “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves …” (Hebrews 13:17 KJB)?

It (Heb. 13:17 KJB) is in the context of:

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.” – Hebrews 13:7 KJB​

Hebrews 13:17 KJB is speaking about following the conduct of good (not evil) ministers and elders in the church (not political Governments).

Do not let others deceive you when they abuse this text.

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.” – Romans 13:8 KJB​
“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” – Romans 13:9 KJB​
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” – Romans 13:10 KJB​
“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.” – Romans 13:11 KJB​
“The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” – Romans 13:12 KJB​
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.” – Romans 13:13 KJB​
“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” – Romans 13:14 KJB​

Final warning:

“My son, fear thou the LORD and the king (Jesus, the Christians King, whose kingdom is not of this world; John 18:36 KJB): and meddle not with them that are given to change (Daniel 7:25 KJB):” – Proverbs 24:21 KJB​

(Obama’s ‘change’, ‘we are change’, ‘loose (unleash) change’, ‘solidarity’, are all Jesuit run)​
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
#15
Paul (through the Holy Spirit) said obey government (which God has ordained for your protection) so it will go well with you. Rom. 13
“Should Christians fight back physically or resist by force the such a Governmental Law and confiscation of property and destruction of life with weapons, such as guns, knives, and physical violence, for Jesus said, “… he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one”?

“Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” – Luke 22:36 KJB​
“For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.” – Luke 22:37 KJB​
“And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords (*). And he said unto them, It is enough.” – Luke 22:38 KJB​

(*Simon Peter, being one, and the other likely being Simon the Zealot; the two Simons. Any system which today is like that?)​

What did Jesus mean?

Did the disciples understand Jesus’ words about the selling of the garment and the buying of a sword?

No.

The disciples still misunderstood Jesus’ spiritual meanings with physical meanings, even after so long a time with Him. Jesus was not talking about physical weapons.

1.John 1:19-25 (John the Baptist as Elijah)
2.John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
3.John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
4.John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
5.John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
6.John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
7.John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
8.John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
9.Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)
The disciples were to trade in their old ‘garments’ of self-righteousness, and take up His righteousness, the sword of the word of God.

“And, behold, one of them (Peter; John 18:10 KJB) which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.” – Matthew 26:51 KJB​
“Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword (*) into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” – Matthew 26:52 KJB​
(* Did Jesus say, “My sword”, or “thy sword”?)
“Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” – Matthew 26 :53 KJB​

Jesus also said:
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” – Matthew 5:10 KJB​
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” – Matthew 5:11 KJB​
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” – Matthew 5:39 KJB​
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. ” – Matthew 5:43 KJB​
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; ” – Matthew 5:44 KJB​

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” – Matthew 5:45 KJB​
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” – Matthew 5:48 KJB​
“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” – John 18:36 KJB​
“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.” – Isaiah 53:7 KJB​
“Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.” – Psalms 44:22 KJB​
“The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.” – Matthew 10:24 KJB​
“It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?” – Matthew 10:25 KJB​

Romans 13 – God’s Ministers.

Jesus.jpg

Jesus was made to be sin for us …

Our resistance is the "Word".
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#16
The church choir that met in Washington now has 16 ill and 2 dead. Where does wisdom enter the picture? Should the choir director be held liable?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I am in agreement that it is a good suggestion not to assemble in large groups, But it is still unconstitutional to restrict groups from meeting together for the purpose of praising and honoring God. Heb 10:25, Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much more, as ye see the day approaching. Acts 5:27-29, And when they had brought them, they set them before the council, and the high priest ask them, Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other Apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than man.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#17
funny how a virus...any virus...doesn't pack the constitution while it travels from person to person

ARE YOU JUST KIDDING ME?
I understand the seriousness of the virus, but I also know that the constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." If the people choose not to meet together, that is their rightful choice, but if the government arrests you for attending a worship service, it is against the constitution of the United States.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#19
So basically you took a non-religious issue that happened to affect a religious gathering and twisted it into religious persecution. That is dishonest and deceptive.
Acts 5:29, Are you saying that you would choose to obey man's law, rather than obey God's law?"
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#20
Not necessarily. There are instances for national security.
I am not saying that it is not for national security, but national security cannot override the 1st amendment. As long as President Trump keeps it as a suggestion, he is in his rights and not overriding the 1st amendment.