Genesis 3:16 He will rule over you.

The ground produces weeds. Child birth still hurts badly unless the women folk are in kahoots on the biggest scam in history.

The New Testament tells women to submit to their husbands like Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him lord

This gave me a chuckle. While sometimes I suspect that women are in cahoots about some things, I think it's inadvertent, and the profound discomfort of childbirth is not among them. I was present for both my children's births; why any woman would go to such lengths to perpetuate such a scam is beyond me.

Military, government, business, have an authority structure so things run smooth and people are not fighting over who is in charge.

The Bible says that God is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman.

But this is speaking of the Church that a man should take the lead, but when he is done speaking then all the saints can contribute men and women, and women can speak if the preacher wants them to speak, and can give testimonies, and praise God.

The Bible says that there is no difference between a man and a woman in the Lord so they are equal, and the man does not have the authority above the women.

But Paul said that the wife shall submit to the husband, but people in the world do not do that right in their marriage as many men want to control their wives and act as if they are their slaves.

The man is supposed to guide the family in the ways of the Lord for it to be effective according to what God wants, so if he is doing the will of God it would be like she is listening to God and the man has nowhere to glory or control for it is not his ways but the Lord's ways.

And the wive is the helpmate that has her say so in the marriage.

And if the man is not acting right according to the ways of God then she must side with God and not the man, and point out his behavior that is wrong for she is a saint too.

But in the world it does not work that way for men and women fight for control in the marriage, and years ago when the men were in control many of the men did not act right.

I look at a man and a woman as equal but the man should take the lead according to the ways of God for it to be effective concerning the operation of God on earth.

But a man and a woman are equal in the Lord and the man is not above the woman, for the Bible says there is no difference between them in the Lord.

Christians tend to say this is a command. The Rabbi's tend to say this is a statement of consequence. We need to look and follow the law of first use. In this case in Genesis 1:1 we read about Heaven AND Earth. Jesus taught us to pray: Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done - on Earth as in Heaven. We know that Heaven and Earth are divided and it is God's desire to unite them.

If a Husband and Wife are Divided then He is going to try to dominate and rule over her. In some rare cases she may seek to dominate him. IF they are United as we are to be United with Jesus then they are co heirs and they are equal. Equal in joy and rejoicing and they share each others suffering and sorrow. As Jesus endured the cross.

Not really. The reason the Bible uses the term Sons of God is because of the legal implication. The birthright goes to the firstborn son. The whole point of passover is to eliminate the first born son. So for example when we read about the manifest son of God, this means the manifest sons and daughters of God.

The law was give at Mount Sinai. Moses was given the 10 commandments. All of the Torah, the books of Moses explains the law that was given 50 days after they left egypt and slavery. Although they arrived 40 days after they left.

Today we celebrate Pentecost 50 days after passover. This is considered to be the age of Grace. This means the Grace of God or the Holy Spirit of God doing a work in us and through us.

We are told that we are to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, soul & strength AND we are to love our neighbor as ourself. In Hebrew Heart & Mind are considered to be united as one.

Which one where the English translators was using, Radah Kabash Abad shamar, was it properly translated. Maybe it was to keep, Adam could have been disappointed with her and so he was told to keep her. He did say God you gave her to me that implies a sort of disagreement. and I have to include the mind set of men of old,, woman where not valued much in the old days, they probably didn’t even look at the other Hebrew words that are similar, to rule over fits the in charge mentality of men in those days

I found this info to be interesting.
https://kgsvr.net/xn/discussion/radah2.html

to rule over is a bit much IMO

Your desire will be for your husband, and he will keep you.”

That's exactly how I read it: that because of the fall, men will dominate ("rule over") their wives, and we see that both within Christendom and across the broader society. The horrid truth of it is played out daily among followers of false religions, where wives are manipulated, oppressed, beaten, raped, tortured, and murdered... and all but the last two happen among "Christians" as well. It also means that, generally, men will dominate women. As an aggregate, women are physically weaker than men (hence Peter's comment) but otherwise there is no difference in capacity, particularly in the Church.

I understand that conscientious Christians differ on this, but I see the complementarian position as an unfortunate fulfillment of this declaration. Here we are, equally redeemed in Christ, and yet some are less equal than others. To me, no amount of bleating "equal but different" removes the implicit inequality. What I also see consistently is that complementarians are quick to denigrate and even demonize those who disagree with them. That to me serves as additional evidence that their position is wrong.

However, I don't think you started this thread to sort out that whole Gordian knot.

IMO, that interpretation simply doesn't fit the context. Everything else that God says in his monologue is negative.

Which one? To rule over or to keep?

"To keep."

Women abuse women also. I know a women with 10 sisters and she can tell a lot of stories about that. Often we blame the victim. What we need to do is empower the victim so they do not submit themselves to the abuse. There are classes like assertive training that can help with this at least in part.

An interesting case is Patty Hearst and Stockholm syndrome. She claimed she was kidnapped and yet the judge sentenced her to 35 years in prison. He did not believe her. He thought she was in cahoots with her abductor.

IMO to rule over is not the right translation either, Adam was disgruntled about what happen I think it’s highly likely he thought of abandoning the relationship, shamar seems more in line than radah

JohnR7 said:

The law was give at Mount Sinai.

Click to expand...

Understood ... I just didn't understand why the OP implied that the "law" Christ redeemed us from had anything to do with Gen 3:16. That's why I asked what "law" is referred to in Gal 3:13.

JohnR7 said:

"To the woman He said: “I will sharply increase your pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16)

We are told that: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Galations 3:13) Does this mean that the Husband and wife are to be equal partners in a marriage and that in a Christian marriage the husband does not "rule" over the wife? Or does the women still have to submit herself to her husband in the same way that we are to submit ourself to Christ.

Click to expand...

I do not believe the instruction in Ephesians 5 is properly understood (for the most part). We always go to the instruction of "wife submit to the husband" ... but do we really understand the whole of the instruction in Ephesians 5?

If we read from Ephesians 5:21, we understand that each and every believer is to "submit" to other believers.

Ephesians 5:

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.


Then as further instruction, the wife is to submit to the husband.

Ephesians 5:

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;



The instruction in vss 22-25 concerning the husband/wife relationship is an example to the Church (the body of believers) concerning the mystery:

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


In a true, biblical marriage wherein both husband and wife are committed to the Lord and to each other, that relationship should be a witness to other believers in the body of Christ. We should see the husband and wife growing together in love and faith and joy in the Lord. We should see the "mystery" in action.

In the same regard, when each believer follows the instruction in Ephesians 5:21 and submits to other believers, the body of Christ grows stronger and more vibrant ...

The Lord Jesus Christ works within each individual member of His body and He brings us together That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:26-27).


To truly understand the end of Ephesians 5, we should endeavor to understand what is taught starting in verse 1.

First we have the walk in love revealed in Eph 5:1-7; then the walk in light of Eph 5:8-14; then the walk circumspectly of Eph 5:15-33. The instruction beginning in Eph 5:21 (relating to "submitting") is part of the walk circumspectly.

The word "circumspectly" in vs 15 is the Greek word akribṓs:


To walk circumspectly means to walk properly, very exact. We cannot walk in this manner without having the light ... which is why the walk in light precedes the walk circumspectly. And the walk in love precedes the walk in light.

Just sayin ...

I think the “rule over” part is different than “submission.” A kid submits to their parent. An abusive parent rules over their child to control and punish them.

I remember that Jesus spoke about the husband being the head of the family like He is head over the church. Also to love his wife like He loved the church. You can rule over a place and not care about it whatsoever. So I think submission is still a Christian thing for a lady to do. I’ll have to as well, and I’m pretty dang stubborn 🤣

hmm the misuse of words could of been even before English translation, but something with the Mashal use is off, in charge of safety observation attention seems plausible not running out to the desert because the woman sounds like dripping rain water even in those times heeding to the dripping water is needed rather than being bothered by it.

Shamar is translated in the KJV:

'keep', 'keeper', etc. 312 times
'observe', 'mark''regard', 'heed' etc. 120 times
'preserve', 'save', etc. 23 times
others 3 times

When translated 'keep' it includes to keep God's commandments. Thus shamar seems to refer to careful keeping that watches over the object with careful observation and attention.
https://kgsvr.net/xn/discussion/radah2.html


The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Definition Shamar

1. to keep, guard, observe, give heed
   1. (Qal)
      1. to keep, have charge of
      2. to keep, guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life
   2. watch, watchman (participle)
      1. to watch for, wait for
      2. to watch, observe
      3. to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
      4. to keep (within bounds), restrain
      5. to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or covenant or commands), perform (vow)
      6. to keep, preserve, protect
      7. to keep, reserve
   3. (Niphal)
      1. to be on one's guard, take heed, take care, beware
      2. to keep oneself, refrain, abstain
      3. to be kept, be guarded
   4. (Piel) to keep, pay heed
   5. (Hithpael) to keep oneself from

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Definition radah

1. to rule, have dominion, dominate, tread down
   1. (Qal) to have dominion, rule, subjugate
   2. (Hiphil) to cause to dominate
2. to scrape out
   1. (Qal) to scrape, scrape out

King James Word Usage - Total: 26
rule 13, dominion 8, take 2, prevaileth 1, reign 1, rule over 1

Radah, used in Genesis 1:26-28, is not a common word in the Hebrew of the Old Testament. According to Young, in the KJV, it is translated:

'rule', 'rule over', 'reign' etc. 15 times
'have dominion', etc. 8 times
'prevail against' 1 time (in Lam 1:23 in KJV, but the Hebrew is now r'degah)
'take' 2 times (in Judges 14:9, when Samson took the honey)

which group together into about a dozen places. But what kind of ruling or dominion is this talking about? We can determine this by looking at what other Hebrew words are translated as 'rule' or 'dominion', and by looking at the other verses that use it.

The Hebrew words most frequently translated as 'rule' is mashal (57 times). Mashal seems to refer to the operation and result of ruling and of force as in God ruling over the raging sea [Psa 89:9]. Radah (15 times) seems to refer to authority rather than force, as in Psa 110:2, where the Messiah will rule over his enemies, Psa 68:27, where little Benjamin rules them, and as in I Kings 5:16 which refers to supervision of workers. With 'have dominion' we find a similar pattern, with mashal referring to the kind of cruel oppression that the Philistines exercised over Israel in Judges 14:4, while radah refers to authority. Further, in most places radah authority is linked to, or within the context of, God's superior authority, which seems not to be so true of the other words. https://kgsvr.net/xn/discussion/radah2.html

radah (often translated as 'rule' or 'have dominion over'),
kabash ('subdue'),
abad ('till'), and
shamar ('keep').

Kabash or Abad radah doesn’t seem plausible as used for the relationship between Adam and Eve outside the garden rather than applied to both like the woman who God gave the order over the army and ruled them and few other mentioning of women being in supervision, Anna the prophetesses no human told her the prophecy but God.

Live your calling rather leading or following, preaching or listening or a combo of both, below I think the each mentioned in the verse 17 below means together as he him or brothers not a single man but humanity as a whole, sometime I think it’s not directly mentioned as he and her or sisters and brothers but in a jester of together nonetheless.

1 Corinthians 7:4
The wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband. Likewise also the husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but the wife.

1 cor 7
17Regardless, each one should lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is what I prescribe in all the churches. 18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man still uncircumcised when called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commandments is what counts.

20Each one should remain in the situation he was in when he was called. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Do not let it concern you, but if you can gain your freedom, take the opportunity. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave.

23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24Brothers, each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him.

Jesus did not redeem us from the law. He redeemed us from the curse of the law. He fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law for us. Sin is like a debt and our debt was more than we could pay. So he paid the price for us. We charge it all to His account.

Jesus lived His life as an example for us to follow. It is to bad that more husbands do not take it to heart the life they are to live as an example to others.