Irresistible Grace ?

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Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#121
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#121
Gregoryp said:
For me it started when I was very young, I was walking on my way to primary school, about ten years old, wondering what I would do as a career when I grew up, the first word that came to me was "priest" as soon as I declared it, a feeling like electricity going through me happened. From that moment life changed. far to long of a story to go into here, but suffice to say it still is quite a journey. So was I chosen? Yes of course.
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Have you made a testimony on here about this? I would very much like to read it for sure I didn't even know you were priest
Many are called but few are chosen this has always been an interesting way to say it and normally it is believed to mean saved and lost but lately I have found that there may be more to the verses than we were led to believe
Many are in deed called but is this speaking of him calling the unsaved or is it him calling us his church to answer the call? few are chosen is this speaking of the saved or is it speaking of certain people that were predeistined by him for a certain destiny?

The thing is he allows free will and if say the called as we are as his children called the thing about a calling is you have to be willing to answer the call or not and some do not due to fear or something else, others it seems instinctively receive the call just from what you said there was nothing it seems that special about that day and you just said out loud your calling as if by instinct

Now I may be completely wrong about the interpretation I just find it an interesting way of viewing it
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#122
Aug 4, 2020
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#122
Deuteronomy said:
Hello throughfaith, very sorry about the delay in getting back to you!

First off, as for the "corpse-like deadness" of Lazarus, Lazarus was dead .. "physically". The "T" speaks of being "spiritually" dead, obviously, since systematic theologies (all of them) are rendered moot for those who are "physically" dead (because the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ at that point is over).

Lastly, though the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism are certainly clear enough (e.g. unlimited vs limited atonement, conditional v unconditional election, etc.), you said that they are both wrong "for all the same reasons". So my question is, what are those reasons?

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's some of what the Bible has to say about being spiritually dead. Take particular note of the words in bold.

Ephesians 2​
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,​
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.​
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,​
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).​
​
Click to expand...
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#124
Aug 4, 2020
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#124
The T is what is shared by Arminians. Which leads to previenient Grace in the same way it leads to Irresistible Grace in Calvinism. They both have Election to salvation. The Arminian version according to ' Foreknowledge ' but still ' before the foundation of the world ' . This is a basic, quick explanation. A study of Jacob Arminius ( Taught under beza in a Calvinst hive) ,and its easy to see why Arminism is essentially ' soft Calvinism. They both stem from the same faulty pot. Jabob tried but never fully found his way out the system . The same way Luther never let go of all of Catholicism.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#126
Jun 11, 2018
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#126
throughfaith said:
The T is what is shared by Arminians. Which leads to previenient Grace in the same way it leads to Irresistible Grace in Calvinism. They both have Election to salvation. The Arminian version according to ' Foreknowledge ' but still ' before the foundation of the world ' . This is a basic, quick explanation. A study of Jacob Arminius ( Taught under beza in a Calvinst hive) ,and its easy to see why Arminism is essentially ' soft Calvinism. They both stem from the same faulty pot. Jabob tried but never fully found his way out the system . The same way Luther never let go of all of Catholicism.
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I see. Thanks!

So what is the "way out of the system", as you see it :unsure: (be it Arminian or Calvinist). Or better, what is YOUR system .. specifically? Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism perhaps? Something else?

Thanks again :)

~Deut
 
Gregoryp

Gregoryp

Banned
#127
Jul 20, 2019
1,228
882
113
#127
Blain said:
Have you made a testimony on here about this? I would very much like to read it for sure I didn't even know you were priest
Many are called but few are chosen this has always been an interesting way to say it and normally it is believed to mean saved and lost but lately I have found that there may be more to the verses than we were led to believe
Many are in deed called but is this speaking of him calling the unsaved or is it him calling us his church to answer the call? few are chosen is this speaking of the saved or is it speaking of certain people that were predeistined by him for a certain destiny?

The thing is he allows free will and if say the called as we are as his children called the thing about a calling is you have to be willing to answer the call or not and some do not due to fear or something else, others it seems instinctively receive the call just from what you said there was nothing it seems that special about that day and you just said out loud your calling as if by instinct

Now I may be completely wrong about the interpretation I just find it an interesting way of viewing it
Click to expand...
I never actually became a priest however! I think it just signified that he is who I belong to.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#128
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#128
Gregoryp said:
I never actually became a priest however! I think it just signified that he is who I belong to.
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Oh I see my bad :LOL: But yeah I think your right your experience is interesting similar to mine like a surge or electricity it's a good way to describe it
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#129
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#129
Deuteronomy said:
I see. Thanks!

So what is the "way out of the system", as you see it :unsure: (be it Arminian or Calvinist). Or better, what is YOUR system .. specifically? Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism perhaps? Something else?

Thanks again :)

~Deut
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My position would be ,I recognise we all have presups and I'm trying to recognise those as I go and let go of them as i Study the Bible . I'm not committed to a sysyem that I'm following. I recognise the labels and the boogeymen '
Pelagianism / Semi-Pelagianism which is how I drifted into Calvinism for a season, after all who wants to be on the wrong team lol . No I'm just trying to avoid those ditches. Often people become a Calvinist because they ask the Question " which one holds to eternal security , Calvinism or Arminism ? " " Calvin !!! Ok I'm a Calvinist then ...
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#131
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#131
Deuteronomy said:
I see. Thanks!

So what is the "way out of the system", as you see it :unsure: (be it Arminian or Calvinist). Or better, what is YOUR system .. specifically? Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism perhaps? Something else?

Thanks again :)

~Deut
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My experience with Calvinism was because of being exposed to too many calvinist teachers before I really understood the issues and before I was grounded in the bible. I was swayed by the debate side of things ..James White ect ,then vodie baucham . I was convinced by the apologetic side of calvinism and assumed it was serious and scholarly compared with those pesky Charismatics . But then I actually started to look seriously at the P In the system and it all came unravelled from there ,till finally I understood Election and Predestination from the bible.
 
G

garee

Banned
#132
Mar 28, 2016
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#132
throughfaith said:
My experience with Calvinism was because of being exposed to too many calvinist teachers before I really understood the issues and before I was grounded in the bible. I was swayed by the debate side of things ..James White ect ,then vodie baucham . I was convinced by the apologetic side of calvinism and assumed it was serious and scholarly compared with those pesky Charismatics . But then I actually started to look seriously at the P In the system and it all came unravelled from there ,till finally I understood Election and Predestination from the bible.
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Why from there P and not from T?

If it is God working in us to the both will and do his good pleasure and we are to work with him and not murmur . If we leave our the P then who works with us in order to persevere to the end?

Why from the standpoint of Him preserving the work he began would we think he cannot perform it to the end?

Chapter 1:6 of Philippians with chapter 2:23 -24 seem to support the good work of God that he works in us.

He promises us in Hebrew 6 as that which acompanies salvation if we offer the good works we perform with him towards the power he has given he will remember them.

Do some fear he will not persevere with us to the end? like he began the god work and could not finish?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 2;13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Why murmur about the "P." What's that all about?

Are some not some totally depraved, powerless as in no faith, not little, none? Can they do their own work of persevering without the power of Christ working from with . Did Jesus persevere without the power of the lord working within Him?

Do some have born again life prior to him working in us with us?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#133
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#133
garee said:
Why from there P and not from T?

If it is God working in us to the both will and do his good pleasure and we are to work with him and not murmur . If we leave our the P then who works with us in order to persevere to the end?

Why from the standpoint of Him preserving the work he began would we think he cannot perform it to the end?

Chapter 1:6 of Philippians with chapter 2:23 -24 seem to support the good work of God that he works in us.

He promises us in Hebrew 6 as that which acompanies salvation if we offer the good works we perform with him towards the power he has given he will remember them.

Do some fear he will not persevere with us to the end? like he began the god work and could not finish?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 2;13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Why murmur about the "P." What's that all about?

Are some not some totally depraved, powerless as in no faith, not little, none? Can they do their own work of persevering without the power of Christ working from with . Did Jesus persevere without the power of the lord working within Him?

Do some have born again life prior to him working in us with us?
Click to expand...
where have you got the idea that those in Christ have to persevere to the end ? what if you died today?
garee said:
Why from there P and not from T?

If it is God working in us to the both will and do his good pleasure and we are to work with him and not murmur . If we leave our the P then who works with us in order to persevere to the end?

Why from the standpoint of Him preserving the work he began would we think he cannot perform it to the end?

Chapter 1:6 of Philippians with chapter 2:23 -24 seem to support the good work of God that he works in us.

He promises us in Hebrew 6 as that which acompanies salvation if we offer the good works we perform with him towards the power he has given he will remember them.

Do some fear he will not persevere with us to the end? like he began the god work and could not finish?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 2;13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Why murmur about the "P." What's that all about?

Are some not some totally depraved, powerless as in no faith, not little, none? Can they do their own work of persevering without the power of Christ working from with . Did Jesus persevere without the power of the lord working within Him?

Do some have born again life prior to him working in us with us?
Click to expand...
Where have you got ' totally depraved ' from ? And We are only ' born again ' after we believe . We don't then persevere to the end to be saved . That would be works salvation . That verse is to do with the Tribulation.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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#134
Jun 11, 2018
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#134
throughfaith said:
Often people become a Calvinist because they ask the Question " which one holds to eternal security , Calvinism or Arminism ? " " Calvin !!! Ok I'm a Calvinist then ...
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Hello again throughfaith, you know that there are FAR more Arminians/Free-will types than Calvinists who hold to some form of the doctrine of Eternal Security (normally OSAS), yes? (because there are so many more non-Calvinists than there are Calvinists today)

Calvinists (as I'm certain you know) hold to the doctrine of the Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints, not to OSAS (which I guess you could call an illegitimate cousin of the Calvinist doctrine, considering what OSAS so often means to people).

My senior pastor is a classic 5-point Arminian (who believes that someone can lose their faith by choosing to reject the Lord .. not by sinning), but most Arminian or Free Will believers I know actually hold to 4 points of Arminian theology + OSAS. I've found that it's our legalists or Pharisees (whatever you want to call them), those who believe that salvation is based on what ~they~ do, instead of what Jesus did for them, that gets them saved, who steadfastly believe that a true Christian can lose their salvation, and that (most often) by sinning.

~Deut
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#135
Jun 11, 2018
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#135
throughfaith said:
My position would be ,I recognise we all have presups and I'm trying to recognise those as I go and let go of them as i Study the Bible . I'm not committed to a sysyem that I'm following. I recognise the labels and the boogeymen.
Click to expand...
Hi throughfaith, I'm sure you understand the Biblical reasons behind both the Arminian and the Calvinist beliefs that the Father must act on our behalf to enable/quicken/regenerate us before it is possible for any of us to come to saving faith in His Son, yes? However, since neither Irresistible Grace nor Prevenient Grace is your "cup of tea", which "flavor" are you drinking these days :unsure:

Do you perhaps believe that all of us are inherently capable of responding in a positive manner when we hear the Gospel, apart from any prior, gracious enabling on God's part? Something else? (BTW, I'm not asking you for some kind of "label", just a quick summary of what you believe in regard to this and why)

Thanks :)

~Deut
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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#136
Jun 11, 2018
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#136
throughfaith said:
where have you got the idea that those in Christ have to persevere to the end ? what if you died today?
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I hope you two don't mind me jumping in here, but a passage and a similar verse comes immediately to mind about this.

Matthew 24​
9 "They will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.​
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.​
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.​
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.​
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.​
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."​
​
Mark 13​
13 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."​

We persevere in the faith because the One who saved us and then sanctifies us sees that we do. He sees all of us who are His safely through this life so that we can be with Him in Glory by preserving us in the faith, yes .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25.

~Deut

1 Thessalonians 5​
23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body ​
be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.​
​
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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#137
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#137
throughfaith said:
We are only ' born again ' after we believe.
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Well, here I go again :( Sorry about all of these posts being clumped together like this :oops: If it's too much to answer (I already know that you have 3 under 5), then just reply to whatever you have time for.

John 3​
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”​

The Bible tells us that we cannot see the Kingdom of God (much less enter into it .. John 3:5) unless we have ~already~ been born again. But, if what you are saying is true instead, that we must believe ~before~ God quickens us/causes us to be born again, what is it, exactly, that we are choosing to believe :unsure:

Likewise, the Apostle Paul does a wonderful job of contrasting the "spiritual" man (Christian/believer) with the "natural" man (reprobate/unbeliever) for us in the following passage (v14 below details the "natural man"/unbeliever for us, obviously).

1 Corinthians 2​
12 We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,​
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.​
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.​
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.​
.​
So, just like we saw in John 3:3, how can someone who is still in his/her "natural", unregenerate state (who is not capable of seeing, understanding and accepting the spiritual things of God .. except as "foolishness") ever come to saving faith unless God makes it possible for them to do so :unsure:

Thanks again :)

~Deut
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#138
Aug 4, 2020
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#138
Deuteronomy said:
Hi throughfaith, I'm sure you understand the Biblical reasons behind both the Arminian and the Calvinist beliefs that the Father must act on our behalf to enable/quicken/regenerate us before it is possible for any of us to come to saving faith in His Son, yes? However, since neither Irresistible Grace nor Prevenient Grace is your "cup of tea", which "flavor" are you drinking these days :unsure:

Do you perhaps believe that all of us are inherently capable of responding in a positive manner when we hear the Gospel, apart from any prior, gracious enabling on God's part? Something else? (BTW, I'm not asking you for some kind of "label", just a quick summary of what you believe in regard to this and why)

Thanks :)

~Deut
Click to expand...
Thats ok, yes no ' special ' sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” grace is mentioned in the bible , so I do not believe that .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#139
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#139
Deuteronomy said:
I hope you two don't mind me jumping in here, but a passage and a similar verse comes immediately to mind about this.

Matthew 24​
9 "They will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.​
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.​
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.​
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.​
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.​
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."​
​
Mark 13​
13 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."​

We persevere in the faith because the One who saved us and then sanctifies us sees that we do. He sees all of us who are His safely through this life so that we can be with Him in Glory by preserving us in the faith, yes .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25.

~Deut

1 Thessalonians 5​
23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body ​
be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.​
​
Click to expand...
I believe that is for the ' Tribulation '
They will have to endure to the End .
( physical death )

This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
I don't believe this is now , but for the Tribulation.
the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. Is unavoidably " works salvation if you make this about salvation now . Even if you add its ' God working through you " ect. Either way this is definitely talking about the Tribulation period I believe. I don't believe it's saying ( For now , we have to evangelise The ' kingdom Gospel ' then the end will come . Thats the Tribulation period .
 
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