Too late after our death?

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Aug 16, 2020
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#81
Again hades is the term used to describe the grave. It’s not a reference to hell. Hell I’d a different place associated with the second death. It’s perfectly fine to use these words when they are translated consistently as so.

Same as how Jesus or Moses is not found in the Bible either but we translate it as such. Using words consistently from different languages to portray the same thing is perfectly fine.
When I answer a post it's not always intended to arrow its way directly to the original person. Lurkers there are, who read and don't respond. The audience sometimes learns from reading what others post.

That being said, I wish to remind the reader that the first attempt to translate the Hebrew text of the Tanakh (old testament) and the Greek New Testament was commissioned by Roman Catholic Pope Damasus in the 16th century. This translation is referred to as the Vulgate and was written in Latin. Hebrew names, such as Yeshuah or Y'shuah, were translated as Jesus or other latinized forms. Non canonical books, such as the Apocrypha, were and continue to be included in the Catholic Bible. The influence of Catholic ideology made its way into the terminology used for translation. This influence cannot be understated.

Since its inception as a religious institution, the Roman Catholic church has sought to paganize Christian theological principles. Hades, as mentioned earlier, was the pagan god of the underworld adopted as a translated form of the original Hebrew SHEOL. Sheol is a rather simple concept, while hades implies institutional intervention to keep the dead out of eternal suffering. So too were Hebrew words like gehenna used as a substitute for final destruction. Hell as I stated earlier and which the reader can very on Google was a Saxon word for their pagan afterlife beliefs.

The post-protestant church marches in lock step with Vatican ideology and thus continues to carry over anti-reformation ideology promoted by Francisco Ribera's Futurism dogma.

Bogus doctrine such as the rapture, the anti-christ beast (as a man instead of the Catholic church), and the idea that Biblical prophecy ended with the destruction of the 2nd temple are all of Catholic origin. Its' been accepted by more modern variations, but has remained essentially intact for five hundred years.

It does seem to me that you and I are in agreement with basic concepts here. The meaning of translated words is of utmost importance, however. For in understanding the meaning of the Bible one must attempt to be as accurate as possible. There are far too many attempts these days to subvert our language so as to substitute a foreign agenda. We must work hard to avoid it.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
F

Fundamental

Guest
#82
IF we take scriptures as the Neo Vulgate serious we start naming Jesus lucifer. They translate morning star to lucifer while it should be “stella matutina.”

The Vatican and all her scriptures after Jesus Christ have 0,0 autority. All of them.
 
Aug 16, 2020
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Central Florida, USA
#83
You are not saying anything different than me. You keep acting as if I need to read the Bible but perhaps you need to read comments.

Repeatedly I have stated this.

Everyone faces the first death. They go to the grave. They all sit there until the white throne judgement where all are resurrected to life. Those who are Christians are saved enjoy life on the restored heaven and earth. Those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into hell ( the lake of fire ) and destroyed in the second death which carries the eternal punishment of having been destroyed and their body and soul will never come back.

I’ve read the Bible. I’ve read multiple translations and even different types from Septuagints and Masoretics. I’ve done word studies in Greek and Hebrew on the phrases being translated as hell and hades.

If you feel there is a disagreement, after work over the next few days I can dig deeper into it with you.
Minor points of clarification needed here.

There are two resurrections.

The first is of the just, those who died in Christ. The second, separated from the first resurrection by a period of time, is of the unJust. Those are sentenced to destruction also called the Second Death. For the information of the reader, the Bible says the second resurrection is for the purpose of Final judgment and sentencing to the Second Death - ultimate destruction without parole or persistence of existence in any way shape or form. There is no eternal torment, only destruction of all that once was a person.

The Just, those who have been born again, have already been judged in the person of Jesus' death upon the cross. Jesus was judged on their behalf and thus they avoid the consequences of SIN and destruction.

One of the translations of the Bible I use is the COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE by David H. Stern. It uses the original Hebrew names, such as Y'shuah for Jesus, and idioms as much as possible. The Tanakh, or old testament, is the same as the Protestant Bible but organized a bit differently. There are three sections to the Tanakh; the Torah (or LAW, 1st 5 books of the Bible), the Prophets and the Writings. Daniel, for example, is not considered with the prophets but is placed with the writings. Don't ask me why. I'm not a Jewish scholar. Jesus most often quoted Deuteronomy.

When you write "everyone goes to the grave" you are in agreement with the Hebrew notion of SHEOL. It's very simple. The dead are buried. That's it and that's all. There are some suggestions of something else going on, but essentially its a simple idea not expanded upon very much. Oddly, the gospels seem to indicate destruction of SHEOL or some major alteration in its form upon the death and resurrection of Christ. Expanding upon that idea is not generally a good idea as there is a lot of confusion infused into post-protestant ideology by Catholic doctrine and secular fiction.

The restored earth you mentioned is consistent with scripture and isn't an issue with any interpretation I'm aware of. What does seem to be a problem is the idea of eternal torment, which the Bible does not affirm. It's a Catholic dogma that allows for donation$ to the church so as to support intervention on behalf of the dead. Its literally throwing money into an open grave except that there's a priest in the hole with his wallet open to receive the ca$h.

Daniel and Revelation both stated that the anti-Christ would commit blaspheme - would claim to be God. Consider the words of the Catholic church itself;

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your words.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#84
If we take Jesus at His word (and who dare not) there can be no forgiveness nor any improving of our lot in the afterlife for those who continually neglect the needy in this life. This warning was given by Jesus in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, recorded in Luke 16: 19-31

'There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

He answered, Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

No, father Abraham, he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.

He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead'.

We neglect this warning, given by Jesus, at our peril.
You're right! If people don't repent and receive Jesus as Savior in this life, they'll have no other chances to repent after they die!
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
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#85
I definitely agree that there is no such thing as eternal conscious torment. The eternal punishment is dying a second time with no hope of ever being resurrected again.

When I say there is one resurrection I mean there is one resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous are resurrected to eternal life. The unrighteous is resurrected and face judgement and receive the wages of their sin which is being cast into the lake of fire which is symbolic for the second death.

Some other things we disagree on. I believe scripture clearly teaches that the power
Of the Holy Spirit given through the laying on of hands ceased with the dying of the apostles. I’m not catholic by any means.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#86
I definitely agree that there is no such thing as eternal conscious torment. The eternal punishment is dying a second time with no hope of ever being resurrected again.

When I say there is one resurrection I mean there is one resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous are resurrected to eternal life. The unrighteous is resurrected and face judgement and receive the wages of their sin which is being cast into the lake of fire which is symbolic for the second death.

Some other things we disagree on. I believe scripture clearly teaches that the power
Of the Holy Spirit given through the laying on of hands ceased with the dying of the apostles. I’m not catholic by any means.
The unrighteous die the first death.


It is appointed for all men to die once. The second death is the death of death itself. The letter of the law (thou shall surely die) together with the sufferings of hell it brought. . will be cast into the fiery judgement of Christ . Not one jot or tittle will be removed until the last day, the end of time. The letter of the law will not rise up and condemn another whole creation ever again.
 

tantalon

Active member
Oct 11, 2019
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#87
Rom. 7: 12. The Law is HOLY, JUST and GOOD". The PENALTY for breaking the Law (sin) is what kills, not the Law itself. Our disobedience to the Law is what gets us in hot water.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#88
Rom. 7: 12. The Law is HOLY, JUST and GOOD". The PENALTY for breaking the Law (sin) is what kills, not the Law itself. Our disobedience to the Law is what gets us in hot water.

I hope you are not saying, that man isn't already in hot water, even before he sins. We all died in trespasses and sin when Adam broke the commandment in the Garden. Since he was the Federal Head of all mankind, we all fell with him. We are all guilty of that sin, whether we ever commit a sin of our own or not.

Apart from this, I agree to your point.
 

Derek1955

Active member
Jul 2, 2020
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#89
salvation is dependant on Jesus death ,burial and resurrection. Scarcely do we see Christians preach the Gospel and evangelise in the towns and market places and if salvation was dependant on our preaching ,to reach 'the needy ' then barely any believer would make it . I hear a lot of talk about doing works to be saved or ' obedience ', following commands necessary for salvation ,but these same folks scarcely do the the greatest ' work 'and that's Sharing the Gospel .
The greatest work is to love the Lord you God with all you heart, strength and mind and to love others as ourselves and Jesus tells us that those two commandments sums up the whole of the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40) There is nothing else beyond these two commandments required for salvation.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#90
The greatest work is to love the Lord you God with all you heart, strength and mind and to love others as ourselves and Jesus tells us that those two commandments sums up the whole of the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40) There is nothing else beyond these two commandments required for salvation.
You sound very much like a red letter Christian?
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#91
These are the First and the Greatest no doubt,
but definitely all of the rest 'hang' on them,
as our Saviour has written them upon
our hearts...
we're both committed for the long haul/race,
and our lives have become a joy because of this...
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#92
The greatest work is to love the Lord you God with all you heart, strength and mind and to love others as ourselves and Jesus tells us that those two commandments sums up the whole of the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40) There is nothing else beyond these two commandments required for salvation.
Then its not a gift .
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#93
The greatest work is to love the Lord you God with all you heart, strength and mind and to love others as ourselves and Jesus tells us that those two commandments sums up the whole of the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40) There is nothing else beyond these two commandments required for salvation.
What you have shared from the Word, our Lord, is true. Any other thinking after the free gift of salvation would simply be salvation with license to be ungrateful in all manner, satanic for certain.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#94
What you have shared from the Word, our Lord, is true. Any other thinking after the free gift of salvation would simply be salvation with license to be ungrateful in all manner, satanic for certain.
/////
Any other thinking after the free gift of salvation///// There is nothing to add after that . look at what you've written . Why do you add to it ?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#95
Then its not a gift .
It is the gift God working in us. His labor of love or work of His faith working in us. God with us Emanuel. Some murmur like Jonas and want do die because they know God is gracious. He continues all the days of their lives to work on their hard hearts softening it with the water of the word.

Philippians 2:13-14 King James Version (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
 

Derek1955

Active member
Jul 2, 2020
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#96
You sound very much like a red letter Christian?
If by that you mean I am someone who has an unshakeable faith in the triune God and believes that scripture is God breathed and should not be tampered with by anyone who desires to prune its beautiful blooms to make them better fit the garden of their own limited understanding, then you are correct in your assumption. I've said before that at the last supper Jesus broke bread and gave wine and told the gathered Apostles to "Take, Eat" and not "Take, Understand". I unquestioningly accept the words of Christ as a child and never once in my long life have they led me wrong in any way, shape or form.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#98
"I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness is through [/by means of] the Law, then Christ died for naught [/in vain]." Galatians 2:21
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#99
"I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness is through [/by means of] the Law, then Christ died for naught [/in vain]." Galatians 2:21
Yes the grace of Christ as a result of His labor of love or work of faith that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure .Its not for nothing But is for his good pleasure.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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and, for 'our good pleasure', for our mind has to become one with His...
PHI. 2:5.
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: