Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

At the same time the counterfeit is one of the main ways Satan deceives. I think I mentioned the rampant failed prophecies spewed by the mainstream charismatic churches. All you have to do is flip on the TV.

We all know, that the ones who primarily cling to the idea of Supernatural gifts still existing today are the Charismatics. They also teach "individual" Spirit Baptism, which is not Biblical. No individual was ever baptized by are into the Holy Spirit according to the book of Acts. Check it out for yourself. Baptism in the Holy Spirit always occurred collectively. First upon the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and then later upon the Gentiles. The two aspects of baptism, placing all believers into the one and same Universal Assembly which Christ is building. The Pauline epistles, when dealing with this subject, are always looking back to these events.

As to the "gifts" of the Spirit, we still possess the ordinary gifts, as God gives to each the ability to Love the brethren, to Preach, to teach, to heal (as one does as a physician), each as the Lord sees fit.

However as to the extraordinary gifts, these have passed away for now and will be seen again as the Kingdom approaches. The apostle Paul said:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with.

In this same way, the extraordinary gifts will cease as the revelation of God is completed. Once Scripture is complete, then the need for signs and wonders is rendered null. We know that Scripture is complete and nothing more will be added or taken away. This is not to say that miracles don't take place in God's Providence, they certainly do. Men have fallen from aircraft without a parachute and survived. A young boy fell 8 floors down an elevator shaft and didn't even have one broken bone. But miracles wrought out in Providence are not extraordinary gifts given to individuals. As previously stated, these have ceased because they are no longer needed. The infant church is no longer an infant church. Scripture is no longer being added on too.

Signs and wonders, did not happen as often as one might think in Scripture. God used these to often denote dispensational changes or in support of a God sent messenger. Often, hundreds of years passed without one single sign or wonder.

The Charismatic movement, which claims it has it's beginnings going back to Pentecost, ignores historical accuracy. This movement was not known in recent past church history. The original movement from whence it comes was known as "Pentecostalism". This movement was started around 1901 and the fathers of it are considered to be Charles Parham and William Seymour. The Charismatic movement did not begin until the 1960's. Going back to the 1600s,1700s and 1800's there is no mention of any church calling itself Charismatic or leaning on the "charismata" as a doctrine.

If charismatics were being honest with the Scriptures, then they would have to answer the following. If the power of healing, by laying on of hands, was not fading away, then why do we have these statements in God's Holy Word?

2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Why did Paul have to beseech the Lord three times and yet it was not removed? Why didn't he just heal himself or have one of the other Apostles lay hands on him? Again:

1Ti 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Timothy was often sickly and apparently suffered from a stomach infection or some other bowel disease. Why did Paul not just cure him? Why continue to let him suffer? Could it be, that Paul no longer could perform this extraordinary gift? Still again:

Php 2:26 since he longed after you all, and was sore troubled, because ye had heard that he was sick:
Php 2:27 for indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, that I might not have sorrow upon sorrow.
I guess that you are Anti-charismatic, don't believe in spiritual gifts are still her and now like, word of knowledge/wisdom, healing, tongues prophesy or prophecy. So it sounds like you think that the Holy Spirit is no longer with, in us. Too bad. That's limiting the Holy Spirit. I hope for your sake that it's not blasphemy. May God have mercy on you.

We all know, that the ones who primarily cling to the idea of Supernatural gifts still existing today are the Charismatics. They also teach "individual" Spirit Baptism, which is not Biblical. No individual was ever baptized by are into the Holy Spirit according to the book of Acts. Check it out for yourself. Baptism in the Holy Spirit always occurred collectively. First upon the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and then later upon the Gentiles. The two aspects of baptism, placing all believers into the one and same Universal Assembly which Christ is building. The Pauline epistles, when dealing with this subject, are always looking back to these events.

As to the "gifts" of the Spirit, we still possess the ordinary gifts, as God gives to each the ability to Love the brethren, to Preach, to teach, to heal (as one does as a physician), each as the Lord sees fit.

However as to the extraordinary gifts, these have passed away for now and will be seen again as the Kingdom approaches. The apostle Paul said:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Let's examine these two verses for a moment. The immediate context is, we know in part and prophesy in part. The Scriptures were still being written. The entire revelation of God, to man, was still unfinished. Signs and wonders followed Christ's ministry to show He was the Son of God and they followed the infant church to show this assembly was a work of God. In verse 10, many say this points to the coming of the Lord, "But when that which is perfect is come.....", however, this view is not supported by the immediate context. The Greek word translated "PERFECT", comes from the word τέλειος and primarily means: "Complete, full or mature". In the immediate context, Paul was talking about the completion of Holy Scripture. When it is completed our knowing "in part" (v.10), will be done away with.

In this same way, the extraordinary gifts will cease as the revelation of God is completed. Once Scripture is complete, then the need for signs and wonders is rendered null. We know that Scripture is complete and nothing more will be added or taken away. This is not to say that miracles don't take place in God's Providence, they certainly do. Men have fallen from aircraft without a parachute and survived. A young boy fell 8 floors down an elevator shaft and didn't even have one broken bone. But miracles wrought out in Providence are not extraordinary gifts given to individuals. As previously stated, these have ceased because they are no longer needed. The infant church is no longer an infant church. Scripture is no longer being added on too.

Signs and wonders, did not happen as often as one might think in Scripture. God used these to often denote dispensational changes or in support of a God sent messenger. Often, hundreds of years passed without one single sign or wonder.

The Charismatic movement, which claims it has it's beginnings going back to Pentecost, ignores historical accuracy. This movement was not known in recent past church history. The original movement from whence it comes was known as "Pentecostalism". This movement was started around 1901 and the fathers of it are considered to be Charles Parham and William Seymour. The Charismatic movement did not begin until the 1960's. Going back to the 1600s,1700s and 1800's there is no mention of any church calling itself Charismatic or leaning on the "charismata" as a doctrine.

If charismatics were being honest with the Scriptures, then they would have to answer the following. If the power of healing, by laying on of hands, was not fading away, then why do we have these statements in God's Holy Word?

2Co 12:7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
2Co 12:8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Why did Paul have to beseech the Lord three times and yet it was not removed? Why didn't he just heal himself or have one of the other Apostles lay hands on him? Again:

1Ti 5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Timothy was often sickly and apparently suffered from a stomach infection or some other bowel disease. Why did Paul not just cure him? Why continue to let him suffer? Could it be, that Paul no longer could perform this extraordinary gift? Still again:

Php 2:26 since he longed after you all, and was sore troubled, because ye had heard that he was sick:
Php 2:27 for indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, that I might not have sorrow upon sorrow.

Why didn't Paul come to the rescue of his dear friend? Epaphroditus was healed in the Providence of God not through the laying on of hands. God can do as he pleases. Heal some and send others to their death. And again?

2Ti 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth: but Trophimus I left at Miletus sick.

WHAT.... Paul left him behind sick? Why wouldn't have Paul healed him and brought him along?

There is much the Charismatics overlook in favor of their experiences but if experiences don't match up with Scripture, then you better be asking: From where do these experiences come from? Are you sure there not phony signs and wonders that come from the Devil himself? This final thought... even though this was given to the Jews, it has it's application today:

Mark_13:22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.

At the same time the counterfeit is one of the main ways Satan deceives. I think I mentioned the rampant failed prophecies spewed by the mainstream charismatic churches. All you have to do is flip on the TV.

Actually it isn't taking it out of context if it's true, while yes the gifts have slowed down he built the church in a certain manner and set up how it was to operate via the holy spirit the only gift that scripture says will cease is the gift of prophecy and that is when all is complete

You seem to forget that God is of the supernatural, for the record though the charasmatics are not the only ones who believe in the spirit he is not of flesh and he is not natural it doesn't take a bible degree to understand that if the gifts are not natural they supernatural and if it isn't of the flesh it is of the spirit which is unseen and doesn't work along the lines of this world it never has.

Let me ask you this when you were saved was a natural occurence? did you feel rebron like life was poured in you and did you know the joy of the spirit or did you follow doctrine and study under carnel thinking? Do you notice the difference bewteen the two thing I presented? There is a massive difference between the gifts of the holy spirit and the gifts we are given as humans there is likewise a huge difference between understanding with the spirit and the carnel mind, I am a man of science and logic and reasoning I used mathemical equations laws of physics and science for most things but even I understand that the spirit works in dofferent ways than the carnel mind if I am able to know his voice and know the flow of the spirit and understand that the gifts of the spirit are not limited by then how much more should others who don't have the kind of scientific mind I do?

If you ask me that is saying something

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It uses prophecy, tongues and the gift of the word of knowledge as examples that will cease when that which is perfect is come.
That which will remain being Faith Hope and Love. Not sure how faith is needed in eternity but maybe it means that we will always be dependent on God. Hope, and expectation of good things for eternity. And Love , well we all understand how that endures forever.
No need to prophecy, or speak in tongues and interpret in heaven, because we will know as we are known, which explains some of the purposes of these gifts in the body now. We are encouraged and comforted by them pertaining to the uncertainties of this life. I have heard many confirmations from the gifts of the Spirit that have helped those who were facing direction in ministry. Just like in the book of Acts.
Prophecies do fail. Why? People are not perfect. Sometimes they miss it. This is not the same kind of prophesy as the OT prophets which ended with John the Baptist. If people call themselves prophet as a title and ask to be called prophet they aren't. It is ok to say that there are prophets in that church meaning people who operate in that gift, as they did say such things in the book of Acts, but once someone takes the name as a title and introduces themselves as Prophet Bob, just walk away. Don't even shake their hand.

There are hundreds of millions of charismatic believers who don't watch or agree with the flakes on TV. They do not officially nor unofficially represent "mainstream" charismatics. For every one mega charismatic church with a celebrity pastor doing flaky things on TV there are tens of thousands of other charismatic churches that don't agree with their flakiness who don't deserve to be lumped in the same category. Charismatic christians complain about the nutcases on TV as much as non charismatic christians do.

I do know a significant hand full of non-denominational and Pentecostal charismatic folk. (Of course anecdotal evidence is not a standard) They complain about some of the tv wackadoos, but many follow some of the tv nuts. Even the ones who argue against one tv guy or another, when you visit their church, they are up to the same stuff. But like I said, personal experience don't amount to nothing.
I personally left the charismatic church because the; let's call them inconsistencies. I did go to several before I abandoned the whole thing.

The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:

1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

Any comments and different perspectives?

Well the verse you gave is Scripture and I believe Scripture but what is your point.

Well the verse you gave is Scripture and I believe Scripture but what is your point.

Your conclusions are as my own. I found many who denounced the TV nuts but their church often had the same follies. Perhaps the saddest aspect of talking with charismatic believers is their lack of knowledge where Scripture is concerned. They hold tenaciously to a few verses that seem to give their way of thinking credibility.

One I used to work with constantly denied God's Sovereignty. Out of one side of her mouth she would give lip service to it and then out of the other tell you how many times God would not do something. She denied God was behind calamity and did not believe that God had anything to do with illness or death. Equally grieving, was the constant elevating of the Holy Spirit, to the point, it began to overshadow the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Many deny the "New Birth" of John 3:1-10, by trying to make it the same thing as the Baptism in the Spirit of Acts. Two distinctly different things for two distinctly different purposes.

Glad to hear the Lord led you out from it.

Funny thing that Paul talks about the signs the most, and to the GENTILE CHURCHES in Corinth. Or have you gone so far in hyper dispie doctrine that even the book of Corinthians is to the JOOS?

Actually it isn't taking it out of context if it's true, while yes the gifts have slowed down he built the church in a certain manner and set up how it was to operate via the holy spirit the only gift that scripture says will cease is the gift of prophecy and that is when all is complete
What evidence is there aside from 1 Corinthians 13 :8 that the gifts have gone away? have you not ever been used in the gifts or seen them in action? and if not why do you think that is?

For me at least I have never seen or experienced healing nor have I have ever been able to speak to in tongues or interporet them but I have encountered the gift of tongues even if only once trust me you don't forget an experience like that, The only gift of these sorts God has used me personally in is prophecy but in my opinion the gift of healing is the greatest of these and it would be easy to not beliueve in it seeing as how I have begged and begged for this gift and to have others healed and never once could I recieve but that is what faith is isn't it?

If we require evidence to disprove or prove the gifts instead of believing based on what we know of him instead of our doctrines and understanding of personal logic then we are missing the point.
Personally I don't understand the logic of trying to disprove the gifts especially when these things are one of the most amazing ways he uses us

9And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Jesus has given us authority over the kingdom of satan. Jesus is still healing and delivering all that are oppressed of the devil.

Jesus is translating people from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of light. He did not cease.

If the "gifts" have slowed, the problem is never on His end, it is always down here.