Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

I'm just asking you if you believe those verses I showed saying "WRATH" / "WAS WROTH" speak of the 70ad events or not, and whether or not by the words "the king" Jesus meant Himself and/or God the Father... meaning His/Their "WRATH" (in the 70ad events those verses are addressing). Do you?

No
The catholics burned heretics and their writings. Pretribbers and their writings

Truth and revelations are not depending on apostles.
We see the error of Paul's day.
To just assume the church fathers were infallible?????

But actually we find many if them a mil in their core view.

Do you realize every single one of them viewed end times through a " destroyed/scattered Israel"????

That is WHY many of them thought erroneously that the rapture was either not on the table or after the gt or that 70 ad was the gt.

Want confusion?
Read their end times views and other heretical stuff.

One of them wrote " against heresies"
Because of massive church fathers heresies.

You mustn't have done any studies outside pretrib.
The bride illustration is a feature in all views. Pretrib has no monopoly on that. I've studied it quite a lot.
There is no scriptural evidence for a wedding in heaven.

Do you?

@Lucy-Pevensie


I've already stated in this thread and other threads:

--Luke 21:23,20 "and WRATH upon this people" ...is in the "70ad events" section: Lk21:12-24 "But BEFORE all these [BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth pangs just listed in verses 8-11]" that the next section of things must take place BEFORE THEM, and so vv.12-24 cover the 70ad events ending with v.24's "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..."

--Matthew 22:7 "...and when the king saw it HE WAS WROTH..." (etc,) I spelled out the rest of the verse in that other post--describing the 70ad events... just like Jesus was referring to on Palm Sunday when He spoke the words found in Luke 19:41-44, which parallels Dan9:26c's "desolationS [plural] are determined" (stated in the CONTEXT of the 9:24-27 prophecy re: "[70 Wks] ARE DETERMINED UPON... and upon THY [Daniel's] HOLY CITY"... tho the 70ad events themselves are taking place outside of the parameters of those 70 Wks)


... so yes, it looks to me like there was His WRATH taking place in those "70ad events".

Do you believe the above-bolded verses speak of it?


And I see a parallel in the wording between Lamentations 2:3-4 and that of 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a (when the man of sin be revealed, after the "one restraining at present" is said, of this: "until out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed....")

A "secret rapture" would turn the entire world upside down...I don't care how stubborn those left behind will be, no one is going to be walking by faith anymore and they absolutely will not be able to deny the surety and timing of the Second Coming 7 years after.

When will you realize there's no comparison to the Antediluvians? They had no such evidence, had to walk by faith instead of sight, and therefore had plausible deniability of Noah's warnings.
Yeah, I'm just stupid enough to think Revelation - one of the two most symbolic books in the entire Bible - should be interpreted literally Of course the Two Witnesses are symbolic, and if you're interested in laying Jesuit eschatological nonsense and just let the Bible interpret itself, then read what Zechariah 4 has to say about John's symbolism.
I don't have to think about what you're hung up on...I know for a fact: Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist nonsense, an interpretation totally unknown to this world until the 16th century when the truth of eschatology - PROTESTANT HISTORICISM - was laying waste to the pretend "Vicar of the Son of God" Pedophile-in-Chief in Rome, and the Papacy had to resort to diversionary tactics to turn redirect the accusations of the Protestants to the past or future for Antichrist...and you've swallowed it hook, line, and sinker, to the point that you even deny reality. You actually believe there'll be people living after the "secret rapture" who will "know not" for certain and at what time the Second Coming judgment will be.

JESUS DIDN'T SAY THEY WOULD "NOT CARE" LIKE YOUR "LEFT BEHIND" PEOPLE...HE SAID THEY WOULD "KNOW NOT".

You're forgetting the passage I pointed out the other day that states otherwise (about that ^ time-period):

"For this reason God will send to them a powerful [/strong] delusion so that they should believe the lie / the false / the pseudei" (2Th2:10-12... on the one end of the bookended section [/context] I pointed out... concerning the two CONTRASTING "beliefs" of that future time-period, Paul is covering in this context, and why that is...)

I don't care how stubborn you think the "left behind" people will be, none of them will be able to disregard the voracity of the Word of God after the greatest event you Jesuit Futurists claim will ever strike the planet: the "secret rapture". So, please stop trying to compare the Antediluvians -- who had to walk by faith alone and "knew not until" destruction suddenly came upon them -- with your "secret rapture" sinners who will be walking by sight.
It's not difficult to comprehend that Jesus' comparison of the Antediluvians wasn't limited to just the idea that a lie naturally fills the vacuum when we reject the truth. That applies to the entire history of the wicked, not just those living in Noah's day and those living in your so-called "7 year tribulation".

Interesting theory, but of course, there is no evidence that it applies to end times.

The obvious phenomenon is that the so-called rapture verses are parallel with the Second Advent verses.

Once again, what so-called rapture verse says that Jesus takes the raptured saints back up to heaven?

God's Word SAYS they [certain ones] will not believe, and that's because HE HIMSELF will SEND TO THEM *GREAT DELUSION* during that very time-period...

Rather, the "day of the Lord" refers to His Second Advent. And ch 4 says nothing about any U-turn back to heaven.

Do you notice what is being contrasted? Wrath vs salvation. So this verse is about the ultimate end of the unbeliever; the lake of fire.

Did you read the Posts [3?] at the Links I put in my Post #1536?

https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4494378

We could discuss those (if I get some more free time) = )

It seems that your view is that the 3 sets of God's wrath occur simultaneous. Is that correct? If so, then I can see why the "last trump" would also be the 7th trumpet.

However, I view Revelation as more or less sequential. How do you explain all the sets of judgments to be simultaneous

Thanks.

No it doesn't. As has already been fully explained, the wording in those verses indicate what is just about to occur, not what has already occurred. Proven by ALL the translations on biblehub.com, none of which translate the aorist as "came", which would be the case IF IF IF the wedding of the Lamb had already occurred.

The language is obviously anticipatory. It is exactly how to express what is about to occur.

When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the Second Advent, it should be obvious that ALL the dead saints that are already in heaven will accompany Him. And that will include those "in the Church" who have already died.

The dead ones only.

In fact, by the time when Christ comes back to earth, the remaining Bride, still living, will be a very small number compared with all the ones who have already died.

There are some of us that believe the "WRATH" words in Ezekiel 38:18-19 (after which events the weapons will be "burned for seven years" and bodies being "[actively] burying of them / for seven months") that that war takes place early in the trib yrs, with the wording in 39:7 being parallel to the wording found in Gen45:1 (v.6 says "yet 5 years" were remaining in Joseph's "7 year famine"), coinciding with the SECOND SEAL events (aka part of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" [specifically, the "wars" mentioned also... ] that kick off that future, specific, limited time-period we commonly call the trib)...

... and that's not even getting into "the GREAT tribulation" which is the second half of those years ONLY (starting at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth"--well after the SEALS)

Yes. I think the Return of Christ, rapture, and resurrection occur instantly together or within a short span of each other followed quickly by the great white throne judgement and millennial kingdom.

It was brought to my attention that in Ireneaus' Against Heresy, book 5 chapter 10 he seems very much to be advocating for a rapture.
So it's not fair to say it's a modern invention.

FreeGrace2 said:
Once again, what so-called rapture verse says that Jesus takes the raptured saints back up to heaven?
I did. None of the posts included verses that mention Jesus taking saints back up to heaven after the resurrection/rapture.

So again, what verse clearly indicates that He does?

I would be happy to discuss any verse provided that is given as evidence that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured saints back up to heaven.

That is the crux of pre-trib rapture doctrine. Without that evidence, it's just all conjecture and construct.

I explain them to be simultaneous with 1 Corinthians 15:52

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Last trumpet Christ returns, resurrection, and "changing" in interpret to mean rapture due to other verses that say the rapture occurs at the return of Christ. It all occurs in the "twinkling of an eye" so very quickly. There's no other available option to describe what is "changing" aside from the rapture.

This will be the end of human history. Theres nothing left except the GWTJ and judgement seat of Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:
It seems that your view is that the 3 sets of God's wrath occur simultaneous. Is that correct? If so, then I can see why the "last trump" would also be the 7th trumpet.

However, I view Revelation as more or less sequential. How do you explain all the sets of judgments to be simultaneous

Thanks.
I agree that Christ's return includes resurrection of the dead saints, and rapture (to meet the Lord in the air) of living saints. However, as I read through Rev 19-20, it seems clear that Jesus returns to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon and then sets up His millennial kingdom, during which Satan is bound, and then released "for a short time" to again deceive the nations. Then Jesus ends his final rebellion at the battle of Gog and Magog. And THEN He judges at the GWT. What follows the GWT judgment is the new heavens and new earth (ch 21).