Not By Works
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Paul’s epistles are personal letters sent to the church .
my point is Paul wasn’t saying an individual thing with every verse ( sentance we labeled verse )
like your saying there was no “ John 3:16 “ it was just one sentance one statement by Jesus that was later numbered for study and discussion . My point is that it’s not about each verse contradicting the next verse but what’s being said in chapters ( which are in our Bible now regardless) not in individual verses which we use against other individual verses Grace reconciles with repentance and obedience it isnt contradictory
repentance is the knowledge of good obedience and also Jesus dying for sins and being raised up so we should take in chapters and entire letters and worth what’s being said , rather than choosing a couple verses and making a stand that there’s nothing else that applies
that’s all o was saying whether “ the original Bible had no chapters “ has no impact on what I’m saying we all
Have the modern bibles with chapters my point we shouldn’t cut chapters out for the sake of verses we like and support our own view .
but the thkngs we cut out in between those conflicting verses connect and reconcile them making an understanding
This verse
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. “
doesn’t conflict with this verse
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
and Ephesians 2 talking about saved by Grace through faith doesn’t then exclude what’s in Paul’s letter in chapter 5 or in your view “ a late section in Paul’s original letter “
either way it says this and it doesn’t conflict with grace this is a warning to the same people he was talking to in chapter two and it’s also true
“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:1-7 KJV
it’s meant by design to create a right faith so we don’t excuse our ongoing sin , or condemn ourselves for our past sins we’ve repented of even in the first moments we decide to repent we can let it go but it’s also not an excuse to forget about repentance and freedom to sin and be saved as can be created if we take chapter 2 and reject chapter 5
like your saying it’s not meant to be seperated into several
Messages but has one comprehensive message of remission of sins and also repentance from sins Paul preached the same gospel
we’re all like the adulterer in John 8 we’re being told “ no one can condemn you neither do I who has the power to do so , now go and repent of your sins “
Paul’s chapter two is about having our sins remitted because of grace and through the cross . And his later chapters are about repentance like chapter fives example from the same letter
we should take it all in and then form a belief rather than competing verses was my only point a chapter gives us more of a view of what the verse is meant to say instead of quoting a verse and writing five falters of a doctrine never even considering the context .
my point is Paul wasn’t saying an individual thing with every verse ( sentance we labeled verse )
like your saying there was no “ John 3:16 “ it was just one sentance one statement by Jesus that was later numbered for study and discussion . My point is that it’s not about each verse contradicting the next verse but what’s being said in chapters ( which are in our Bible now regardless) not in individual verses which we use against other individual verses Grace reconciles with repentance and obedience it isnt contradictory
repentance is the knowledge of good obedience and also Jesus dying for sins and being raised up so we should take in chapters and entire letters and worth what’s being said , rather than choosing a couple verses and making a stand that there’s nothing else that applies
that’s all o was saying whether “ the original Bible had no chapters “ has no impact on what I’m saying we all
Have the modern bibles with chapters my point we shouldn’t cut chapters out for the sake of verses we like and support our own view .
but the thkngs we cut out in between those conflicting verses connect and reconcile them making an understanding
This verse
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. “
doesn’t conflict with this verse
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
and Ephesians 2 talking about saved by Grace through faith doesn’t then exclude what’s in Paul’s letter in chapter 5 or in your view “ a late section in Paul’s original letter “
either way it says this and it doesn’t conflict with grace this is a warning to the same people he was talking to in chapter two and it’s also true
“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:1-7 KJV
it’s meant by design to create a right faith so we don’t excuse our ongoing sin , or condemn ourselves for our past sins we’ve repented of even in the first moments we decide to repent we can let it go but it’s also not an excuse to forget about repentance and freedom to sin and be saved as can be created if we take chapter 2 and reject chapter 5
like your saying it’s not meant to be seperated into several
Messages but has one comprehensive message of remission of sins and also repentance from sins Paul preached the same gospel
we’re all like the adulterer in John 8 we’re being told “ no one can condemn you neither do I who has the power to do so , now go and repent of your sins “
Paul’s chapter two is about having our sins remitted because of grace and through the cross . And his later chapters are about repentance like chapter fives example from the same letter
we should take it all in and then form a belief rather than competing verses was my only point a chapter gives us more of a view of what the verse is meant to say instead of quoting a verse and writing five falters of a doctrine never even considering the context .
Always good to have a discussion when people want to discuss.
I have no issue with that.
Very sad when people choose selected verses and do not take the whole into account.
My biggest gripe is with the following
Romans 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
How many times have I heard that verse quoted, particularly to people who are struggling with bad stuff that has happened to them.
That verse is true, God will work good in it, he can't make bad good but work in it and the reason is in the verses following.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
To be conformed to the image of Jesus and therefore be used by him to help others.
I have no issue with that.
Very sad when people choose selected verses and do not take the whole into account.
My biggest gripe is with the following
Romans 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
How many times have I heard that verse quoted, particularly to people who are struggling with bad stuff that has happened to them.
That verse is true, God will work good in it, he can't make bad good but work in it and the reason is in the verses following.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
To be conformed to the image of Jesus and therefore be used by him to help others.
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yes I totally agree also I think we learn over time like when we’re children , we don’t really know a lot about real
Life . I think the Bible explains a process of being born , abiding in a place of rest and comfort in the beginning while he strengthens us in our faith in exclusively his provision . Like a father does his children
but eventually we have to grow up when we start comprehending things I’m. It sure that makes any sense bro but I think it has weight that there are all age groups in the family the church and sometimes the elders who really understand a lot , forget about the time when they didn’t understand hardly anything but Jesus loves them and Jesus is the one who can save us
but if we as grown folks want to remain in diapers and not willing to do the fathers chores we are only condemning ourselves and actually refusing the gift of being made right through faith
I love discussion about scripture brother in a good spirit it always leads me myself to underStand something a bit better or from a different angle I may not have considered I apologize for the length I tend to explain too much of what I’m trying to say but I’m noticing and working toward condensation so please bear with me on that part
Life . I think the Bible explains a process of being born , abiding in a place of rest and comfort in the beginning while he strengthens us in our faith in exclusively his provision . Like a father does his children
but eventually we have to grow up when we start comprehending things I’m. It sure that makes any sense bro but I think it has weight that there are all age groups in the family the church and sometimes the elders who really understand a lot , forget about the time when they didn’t understand hardly anything but Jesus loves them and Jesus is the one who can save us
but if we as grown folks want to remain in diapers and not willing to do the fathers chores we are only condemning ourselves and actually refusing the gift of being made right through faith
I love discussion about scripture brother in a good spirit it always leads me myself to underStand something a bit better or from a different angle I may not have considered I apologize for the length I tend to explain too much of what I’m trying to say but I’m noticing and working toward condensation so please bear with me on that part
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No need to apologize, in fact I apologize for being short with you.
It's all about wanting to be like Jesus. Some grow up quicker than others.
Some are growth stunted based on their past hurts and also based on crap they have been fed by their church. I know from experience.
God bless you brother in Jesus.
Bill.
It's all about wanting to be like Jesus. Some grow up quicker than others.
Some are growth stunted based on their past hurts and also based on crap they have been fed by their church. I know from experience.
God bless you brother in Jesus.
Bill.
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I periodically go to another Site from England. And YES, they have people that are severely confused there too. But it helps me to cool my Jets down a bit, just going to a different site. It gets a bit glitchy at times, especially at nite, late. One guy there just absolutely does not want to believe in the Rapture, and says Nobody will ever be in HEAVEN, Ever. Found a Perfect verse for him:
Philippians 3:19-20 (HCSB)
19 Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things,
20 but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
They do have one feature that I REALLY LIKE, Unlimited Editing, as I frequently find TYPOS long after the 5 Minute Editying Rule is up here. While the rest seems a little substandard to Christian Chat, but it serves the purpose of calming me down when I feel the need to do so HERE.
Philippians 3:19-20 (HCSB)
19 Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things,
20 but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
They do have one feature that I REALLY LIKE, Unlimited Editing, as I frequently find TYPOS long after the 5 Minute Editying Rule is up here. While the rest seems a little substandard to Christian Chat, but it serves the purpose of calming me down when I feel the need to do so HERE.
yes, like John 3:16 should not be separated from John 3:14-15
He is lifted up exactly like the serpent in the wilderness, that whoever looks to Him and believes might be saved -- a point very relevant to the overall theme of this thread. they performed no ritual or works to be saved from the deadly serpents sent among them as the just reward for their wicked hearts and evil speech & deeds; they only looked to it in faith, raised on a cross, and were granted life.
being made in the image of the thing that tormented them - as He became flesh likewise to condemn sin in the flesh.
He is lifted up exactly like the serpent in the wilderness, that whoever looks to Him and believes might be saved -- a point very relevant to the overall theme of this thread. they performed no ritual or works to be saved from the deadly serpents sent among them as the just reward for their wicked hearts and evil speech & deeds; they only looked to it in faith, raised on a cross, and were granted life.
being made in the image of the thing that tormented them - as He became flesh likewise to condemn sin in the flesh.
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John:
15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, AND THEY ARE BURNED.
15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is CAST FORTH as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, AND THEY ARE BURNED.
I'll spell it out: Just as ducklings are to abide in momma duck, lest they be devoured by predators, Jesus "the Vine" commands His Christian "branch" followers to abide in Him, lest we end up in the fire destruction. The Christian can either choose to continually "abide" aka "surrender our will", or cease from doing so and wind up in the fire of destruction.
You do realize Jesus constantly taught spiritual lessons from the natural world, right? Your argument is both irrelevant and asisnine.
That's why I reject religion that limits our experience to only "physical observation and following practices and rules, ect."
I also reject OSAS advocates characterizing their opponents as Legalists because none of us believe salvation can be earned, maintained, or lost by our actions. We believe salvation is accepted and retained by "belief" - but not "trembling demon" belief that OSAS teaches - but true belief that always leads to surrender of the will, per Matthew 26:39 KJV and Luke 22:42 KJV.
You do realize Jesus constantly taught spiritual lessons from the natural world, right? Your argument is both irrelevant and asisnine.
That's why I reject religion that limits our experience to only "physical observation and following practices and rules, ect."
I also reject OSAS advocates characterizing their opponents as Legalists because none of us believe salvation can be earned, maintained, or lost by our actions. We believe salvation is accepted and retained by "belief" - but not "trembling demon" belief that OSAS teaches - but true belief that always leads to surrender of the will, per Matthew 26:39 KJV and Luke 22:42 KJV.