This what do you think of this verse? You quoted it but left no explanation. 1 Thess 4 is cited many times as a pre-trib rapture verse. That's what I thought for many years, too.
I believe all of it, of course. It is written, remember?
1 Cor 15:23 is so clear, how can it not include every person who has believed in the Messiah from Adam on?
Where do you see any verse saying that Jesus leaves out anyone from an event, or that there are several different events that eventually include all who belong to Him.
btw, 1 Cor 15:23 shows 2 groups in the resurrection. The first one is, of course, the "first fruits", Jesus Christ, who was the FIRST person to receive a resurrection body. The second group is "those who belong to Him".
Can you defend that "those who belong to Him" cannot be every believer from Adam on?
Can you show me that no OT believer is "in Christ"?
I wouldn't ever equate an event that YOU
Of course Jesus raised the ELDERS as we see in Matthew 27.
Sorry, only those "IN CHRIST" will rise at Jesus coming to the clouds as shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I must disagree with you here.
Christ was the first human to have a "resurrection body", Again we can agree! Hallelujah!
every one else (believers) get theirs at the same event, which is when Christ returns at the second advent. No. You are trying to lump many verses together as if one event. That is error. God back and read Paul. AT Paul's gathering, it is ONLY those in Christ. And this makes perfect sense. After Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God sent Paul to the Gentiles. It was like a big ( church age ) It would look like this "Jewish age after Messiah........( church age )....Jewish age continues with 70th week.
So everything pertaining to the church is separate from anything in the Jewish age. Only JESUS links the two. The church is IN CHRIST. None of the OT saints were or even could be. Therefore I disagree with you, although I see where you are coming from.
It 's a stretch to claim a pre-trib rapture, wedding in heaven, etc. It is far more of a stretch to say the gathering in Matthew 24 has ANYTHING to do with the church. What are you going to do with John 14? People have BEEN to heaven and came back. They have SEEN mansions. Some have seen THEIR OWN mansion. People have SEEN the preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see. Lately some have been told all is prepared: heaven is just waiting on the church.
Did you ever wonder why the marriage and supper passages are late in the book, back in chapter 19?
But this ISN'T the wedding. The words clearly indicate what is ABOUT TO OCCUR All thrugh the book, John uses Greek Aorist tense verbs for the most part. Then truly have NO tense. There is no timing information included in these verbs. So when we see "is come" it is the Greek "erchomai ." This Greek word has NO TIMING. It is the same with many things in Revelation, like when Wrath comes.
So HOW then can we tell any timing in Revelation? It is the TIME of the first mention. It happens RIGHT THEN in John's narrative. For example, John's first mention of wrath is the Day of His wrath, so wrath begins right there in that verse. Keep in mind, John is just touching the mountain tops here: the briefest of summaries. The marriage in two verses, the supper in the next.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
This is really showing us that in his narrative, the marriage ceremony over and now it is time for the supper. The next verse is on to another subject. By verse 12, the marraige and supper are over and John is on to the next event.
Please pay attention. Yes, please do! But I suspect we read these verses differently and will disagree.
The elders and four beasts and the throne are proof. Proof that the scene is in heaven. That is where the throne is.
I believe all of it, of course. It is written, remember?
1 Cor 15:23 is so clear, how can it not include every person who has believed in the Messiah from Adam on?
Where do you see any verse saying that Jesus leaves out anyone from an event, or that there are several different events that eventually include all who belong to Him.
btw, 1 Cor 15:23 shows 2 groups in the resurrection. The first one is, of course, the "first fruits", Jesus Christ, who was the FIRST person to receive a resurrection body. The second group is "those who belong to Him".
Can you defend that "those who belong to Him" cannot be every believer from Adam on?
Can you show me that no OT believer is "in Christ"?
I wouldn't ever equate an event that YOU
Of course Jesus raised the ELDERS as we see in Matthew 27.
Sorry, only those "IN CHRIST" will rise at Jesus coming to the clouds as shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I must disagree with you here.
Christ was the first human to have a "resurrection body", Again we can agree! Hallelujah!
every one else (believers) get theirs at the same event, which is when Christ returns at the second advent. No. You are trying to lump many verses together as if one event. That is error. God back and read Paul. AT Paul's gathering, it is ONLY those in Christ. And this makes perfect sense. After Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God sent Paul to the Gentiles. It was like a big ( church age ) It would look like this "Jewish age after Messiah........( church age )....Jewish age continues with 70th week.
So everything pertaining to the church is separate from anything in the Jewish age. Only JESUS links the two. The church is IN CHRIST. None of the OT saints were or even could be. Therefore I disagree with you, although I see where you are coming from.
It 's a stretch to claim a pre-trib rapture, wedding in heaven, etc. It is far more of a stretch to say the gathering in Matthew 24 has ANYTHING to do with the church. What are you going to do with John 14? People have BEEN to heaven and came back. They have SEEN mansions. Some have seen THEIR OWN mansion. People have SEEN the preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see. Lately some have been told all is prepared: heaven is just waiting on the church.
Did you ever wonder why the marriage and supper passages are late in the book, back in chapter 19?
But this ISN'T the wedding. The words clearly indicate what is ABOUT TO OCCUR All thrugh the book, John uses Greek Aorist tense verbs for the most part. Then truly have NO tense. There is no timing information included in these verbs. So when we see "is come" it is the Greek "erchomai ." This Greek word has NO TIMING. It is the same with many things in Revelation, like when Wrath comes.
So HOW then can we tell any timing in Revelation? It is the TIME of the first mention. It happens RIGHT THEN in John's narrative. For example, John's first mention of wrath is the Day of His wrath, so wrath begins right there in that verse. Keep in mind, John is just touching the mountain tops here: the briefest of summaries. The marriage in two verses, the supper in the next.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
This is really showing us that in his narrative, the marriage ceremony over and now it is time for the supper. The next verse is on to another subject. By verse 12, the marraige and supper are over and John is on to the next event.
Please pay attention. Yes, please do! But I suspect we read these verses differently and will disagree.
The elders and four beasts and the throne are proof. Proof that the scene is in heaven. That is where the throne is.
You quoted it but left no explanation. In context I was talking about your statement of the dead in Christ being a much larger group and your statement that they were in heaven. Yes, certainly in heaven - UNTIL Jesus brings them WITH HIM to the rapture event. That was my point: they come WITH Him to join with their bodies.
1 Thess 4 is cited many times as a pre-trib rapture verse By itself is is only a rapture verse, because no timing comes with it. We have to read into chapter 5 to find timing information.
1 Cor 15:23 is so clear, how can it not include every person who has believed in the Messiah from Adam on? First, I think all commentaries and most believers say 1 Cor. 15 is speaking of the same event as 1 thes. 4. I believe them. I think they are sister passages speaking of His coming (for His saints) and the resurrection and catching up. Since there is no timing information given in 1 Cor, and there IS timing information given in 1 Thes 5, we must go with the 1 Thes. passage for timing. Since the 1 Thes 4 LIMITS THOSE CAUGHT UP to only those "in Christ" then it must be true for the 1 Cor. 15 passage. It is back to trying to form doctrine from an isolated verse rather than finding ALL verses on a subject. Question: do you believe 1 Cor, 15 is speaking of something DIFFERENT than 1 Thes 4?
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This does not disagree with Paul speaking of those "in Christ." If people are "in Christ," then they are HIS.
Where do you see any verse saying that Jesus leaves out anyone from an event Paul is very clear: only those "IN CHRIST" meaning having been born again.
Can you show me that no OT believer is "in Christ"? It was impossible: Christ had not come before the OT saints died. How could someone in Moses time be "in Christ" when to be "in Christ" they must be born again, and to get born again they must BELIEVE in Christ and believe God raised Him from the dead. All that was impossible until Christ actually came, died, and rose.
