Who is right—Paul, David, or are they both right?

I took this to mean that I said salvation requires perfection, and of course it does not.

Any accusing of others is completely out of line...

My aim is not to argue with you or anyone, and I most certainly absolutely would not want to say anything about you that is not true. I am not speaking on this side about you at any time, I am speaking about scripture,

You asked Tararose if she would disagree with Blik who said we are to obey the law since the requirement is perfection.

I took this to mean that I said salvation requires perfection, and of course it does not. It requires faith. If you agree that I say it requires faith not perfection, then it is true that I completely misunderstood you.

Please, please we are speaking of scripture without judging people. Any accusing of others is completely out of line and just interferes with our search for the true God of scripture. If I have accused you of anything, please forgive me. I did not mean to.

All the verses that tell us to repent of our sin. Also Matt. 5:48.

Scripture tells us to repent, that we lie if we say we are perfect, that obedience is not what God bases forgiveness on, that we are to be perfect, that we are made righteous only through Christ. All of these scripture are truth.

One poster tells us that if we repent of our sins so we want to be perfect, we are saying that we are, of our own doing, telling a lie for if we said that we would be lying. To say we repent of sin and want to be perfect is NOT stating that we have, of our own doing, made ourselves perfect.

David gave us the 119th psalm, it is 176 verses in praise of the law, yet Paul tells us the law is abolished. God would not abolish anything that He gave us that benefits us as David explains the benefits of the law for us, yet scripture plainly states God abolished law.

Can anyone explain this?

Most Christians believe, because they are told incessantly, that the Law is expired and nobody should obey ALL of the 10 commandments anymore. It is widely held that Acts ch. 15 proves this, but ch. 21 of that very book proves that Paul always kept the Law.

"... (that) all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee (rumors against Paul), are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law."
(Acts 21:24) KJV

There is also proof in Acts 13:42-44 that Paul always observed the 4th Commandment Seventh Day Sabbath.

In Romans, Paul states: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Sure.

They're both right.

They were both law-keepers.

As was Jesus to His very last breath.

As were ALL His disciples and ALL Christians for about 300 years thereafter.

I think you missed this in your 'Repentance/Salvation' thread, Blik:



Both King David and Paul the Apostle were loyal to God's/Jesus' 10 Commandments.

David may have loved the law, but I wouldn't call him a law keeper...adultery...plotting murder..covering up his murder, numbering his troops against the advice of his general etc.
Paul didn't fare much better acknowledging himself as the chief of sinners.

So not only did Jesus "CREATE" the 10 Commandments, but Jesus instituted the Sabbath Day at Creation.

Well, ... everybody has sinned ...

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
(1 Jn. 1:8-10)

... and everybody does sin.

"For we all stumble in many things..."
(Jam. 3:2)

In order for it to be a stumble, we must first be striving to walk upright (righteously).

We cannot live in habitual sin and expect Jesus to continue to wipe up our continual/intentional mess.

When we strive for righteousness, obedience to God's/Jesus' Commands, He sees our heart's intention and He supports our efforts with His Holy Spirit - guiding and giving strength to live holy lives; just as Jesus did.

"He who says he abides in Him (Jesus Christ) ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
(1 Jn. 2:6)

Jesus was 100% sinless when He took His last breath on the Cross of Calvary. None of us are, but we CAN strive to imitate our beloved Master. Every servant goes where his Master goes in the end - if he is a true servant.

All that is needed to decide is ... Who is your Master, the World and the approval of man ... or God and His Son who lived a life of obscurity that culminated in persecution and suffering.

"Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."
(1 Pet. 1-2)

ETA: Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners in reference to his time before he was converted on the road to Damascus. Before that, he was an outright murderer. I'd say he made up for it by penning more books of the Bible than anybody else.

Moses said perfection is required according to the law
Paul agreed. and stated plainly whoever is under the law is under a curse. Because no one is pefect
James said if we keep the whole law (perfect) Yet stumble in one area, we are guilty of the law (cursed)

do you agree with these three men?

You are saying if we follow scripture, we would not obey law. There is no scripture telling us to disobey the law, you are making a serious mistake to disagree with scripture.

Heb 10 14 For by one offering he hath (PAST TENSE) perfected for ever them that are sanctified

Nothing was "instituted". God rested that day but there is nothing about him telling anyone about it at the time. The first time people were told about the Sabbath was after they left Egypt. That's when it was first instituted.

There are no verses there to prove He told anybody about the Sabbath at that time, you are correct. But why wouldn't He? It was a pretty big deal to Him.

Oh, I thought you said, "
Both King David and Paul the Apostle were loyal to God's/Jesus' 10 Commandments." and "They were both law-keepers."

As far as Paul saying he was chief of sinners, it was three times he referenced it.

Each time revealing deeper awareness of his depravity. Something most of us Evangelicals could use a few more doses of.

I have a hard time believing Paul was a depraved 'sinner.'

I have a hard time believing Paul was a depraved 'sinner.' I also don't embrace the modern statement of Christians being 'sinners.'

Not only are there countless verses in scripture about how much God 'Hates' sinners, but to call oneself a sinner is to accept sin in your life. To completely embrace sin and give up on even trying to fight it.

The True Christian experience is about battle, spiritual battle. It's about self-denial and change. A Christian should be constantly changing, little by little to become more and more like Jesus and less like ourselves. That's why reading the Bible daily is so important. It's the power of God's Word that chips away at our worldly habits and mental stances over time.

Christians sin, yes. But to call oneself a sinner is, to me, to forfeit any separation/sanctification from sin which separates us from God.

I dunno, ... maybe I'm just too much of an idealist. I truly believe God desires that we be perfect and actually strive for that. It's ok to miss the mark if you continue to hold fast to the ideal and keep striving for it with all that you've got for the rest of your days upon the earth.

"... be imitators of God ..." (Eph. 5:1)
"... be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


Paul was not only a sinner, but said he was the chief or biggest sinner of all. That's because he had hunted Christians and had them killed.