Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

The 144,000 are said to be "firstfruit" (however, WE / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are not the "main harvest" OF THAT).

There is more than ONE "harvest" in both Scripture and in nature.


James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, again, there is more than ONE "firstfruit"... and indeed this is what we see in Lev23, where TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" are referred to).





The "WHEAT" is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement);

whereas the EARLIER harvest, by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR" (and BLOWING away the chaff).


[each having its OWN "firstfruit" ]


*WE* are not the "WHEAT" harvest.




One thing that messes many folks up is the phrase: "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (which does NOT mean "UP IN Heaven"... but is EARTHLY-LOCATED, and relates to "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" age).

The Bible does NOT refer to Christ's resurrection as being the FIRST one. It is described as "firstfruits",

Let's be accurate here... v.20 says:

"...Christ HAS BEEN RAISED [perfect indicative] *out-from [ek]* [the] dead, FIRSTFRUIT OF those having fallen asleep."

I've pointed out that verse 4 is connected to verse 5 by the word "FOR"...so, this is saying,

"Take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you, FOR *MANY* shall come in My name saying..."; and I've pointed out that the "ye / you / your" is a CONSISTENT "ye / you / your" and a "proleptic 'ye / you / your'," meaning (basically), "all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY"; and in THIS *CONTEXT* the "ye / you / your" is "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED" (and *that* was not promised to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

Now, you are free to believe that Jesus shifts gears mid-context, and changes the "ye" who He is speaking to/for/about, but I believe my *consistent* interpretation *FITS* better, especially because of the "TIMING" and "CHRONOLOGY" issues I've pointed out repeatedly:

--Luke 21:12 (per context) states that the 70ad events (vv.12-24a) must takes place "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 JUST FINISHED DESCRIBING (parallel Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 AND the SEALS which are EQUIVALENT to those); and

--Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 (7:3) is saying that the future aspects of the Book (i.e. FROM 4:1 onward [to Rev19's Second Coming point in time]) "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. the SAME 7-yr TRIB years that the other "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrases apply to, found in Lk18:8 ('AVENGE in quickness [noun]'<--this is NOT *NOW*; see also 2Th1:7-8 'INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON') and Rom16:20 ('shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [noun]'<--this is NOT *NOW* but will require *our* CHANGE OF LOCATION! ; see also 'WE shall JUDGE ANGELS' 1Cor6:3[14]);





ANY "chronology" that goes against these clear statements of Scripture (and others I've presented in past posts, elsewhere), I reject.

Believe as you wish.

"Take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100] *deceive* you, FOR *MANY* shall come in My name saying..."; and I've pointed out that the "ye / you / your" is a CONSISTENT "ye / you / your" and a "proleptic 'ye / you / your'," meaning (basically), "all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY"; and in THIS *CONTEXT* the "ye / you / your" is "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED" (and *that* was not promised to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

I've pointed out that the "ye / you / your" is a CONSISTENT "ye / you / your" and a "proleptic 'ye / you / your'," meaning (basically), "all those in the future OF THE SAME CATEGORY"; and in THIS *CONTEXT* the "ye / you / your" ...

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible does NOT refer to Christ's resurrection as being the FIRST one. It is described as "firstfruits",

Yes, that's what I pointed out.

Let's be accurate here... v.20 says:

"...Christ HAS BEEN RAISED [perfect indicative] *out-from [ek]* [the] dead, FIRSTFRUIT OF those having fallen asleep."

1 Corinthians 15:20 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)


So, "FIRSTFRUIT" of THAT kind [of "raised /resurrection"]. The rest of THAT "harvest" [same "RANK"] will follow suit IN THE SAME MANNER/FASHION (that is, "out-from [ek] [the] dead/of those having fallen asleep"... meaning, at that future rest of that same "harvest" point in time, there will still be bodies of saints who will not yet have been "raised/resurrected" [namely, OT saints, up to that point])

That is silly: "firstfruits" in the OT was always a sampling of the first produce to get ripe. That is why this word includes "first..."

Perhaps you can point to some other resurrection into a glorified body before Jesus?

Compare:
take heed that a certain man man deceive you, for many
take heed that any man deceive you, for many
If one was watching for a certain man, they would be deceived by the many! Jesus does not want ANY man to deceive us.

I disagree (bold^ ).

In their carefulness not to be "deceived" (by "MANY" who "shall come in My name, saying"), there's one in particular that their taking heed will be especially to be noted [is Jesus' point!]

(coz *THAT ONE* IS THE ANTICHRIST / THE MAN OF SIN / THE PRINCE WHO *SHALL COME/WHO IS COMING* [and do the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-YEAR]" THING!! at the START OF IT!] / THE *WHOSE COMING* IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN WITH ALL POWER AND SIGNS AND *LYING* WONDERS AND WITH ALL *DECEIVABLENESS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS unto those who...". And if you're *deceived* BY HIM, once you take his mark, you're doomed forever [speaking of those existing IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs... and many will be deceived...]
...because his *ARRIVAL* is what kicks off "the 70th Week / 7 Year / Tribulation Period... in every related text! 2Th2:7b-8a/9a EQUALS Dan9:27a[26b]... and those EQUAL Matt24:4/Mk13:5... and THAT EQUALS Rev6:2... and THAT EQUALS the ARRIVAL OF "the DOTL" time-period [1Th5:2-3 "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"!!], aka the START of the [7-y] TRIB, AKA the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1[7:3] speaks with regard to, and is being "SHOWN [I WILL SHOW / TO SHOW UNTO]" to John from 4:1 thru chpt 19's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time! You just do not want to believe that 4:1's "I WILL SHOW" is what 1:1's "TO SHOW UNTO" pertains to. You're free to believe as you wish, and disengage the "person" being WARNED about, from a number of these related texts, in your explanation/scenario... I DISAGREE with your take on it, and instead believe each of these related passages SPEAK TO THAT VERY THING/PERSON [/man of sin /the AC])

In their carefulness not to be "deceived" (by "MANY" who "shall come in My name, saying"), there's one in particular that their taking heed will be especially to be noted [is Jesus' point!]

because his *ARRIVAL* is what kicks off "the 70th Week / 7 Year / Tribulation Period... in every related text!

Rev6:2... and THAT EQUALS the ARRIVAL OF "the DOTL" time-period

1Th5:2-3 "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"!!], aka the START of the [7-y] TRIB,

I... You just do not want to believe that 4:1's "I WILL SHOW" is what 1:1's "TO SHOW UNTO" pertains to. You're free to believe as you wish, and disengage the "person" being WARNED about, from a number of these related texts, in your explanation/scenario... I DISAGREE with your take on it, and instead believe each of these related passages SPEAK TO THAT VERY THING/PERSON [/man of sin /the AC])

(I) believe each of these related passages SPEAK TO THAT VERY THING/PERSON [/man of sin /the AC

Here's a post I made some time back (on this Subject):

[quoting old post]


SEALS. Here's what I believe regarding them.

1) the phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8 [correlating with the SEALS of Rev6]) STARTS with an INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (1Th5:2-3 'birth PANG [singular]'), and this is what kicks off "the DOTL [time period]" (its ARRIVAL)

----------["the DOTL" includes: the 7-yr trib upon the earth, Christ's Second Coming to the earth, AND His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth--ALL earth-occurring happenings]

2) the "he, he, he" of Daniel 9:27(26b) is the "who, who, who" ['whose,' 'who,' 'whom'] of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 [his 'beginning,' his 'middle,' his 'end']

----------[BOTH passages are telling of events lasting "7 years / 1 Week"--its 'beginning,' its 'middle,' its 'end']

3) The "whose coming" (of the above-mentioned--'beginning' of the man of sin, 2Th2:9) is the "he" of Daniel 9:27a, who kicks off the "7-yr / 1 Week" thing

---------[this kicks off /STARTS "the DOTL" time period--the "in the night" way the DOTL ARRIVES, the "in his time" of the man of sin (being "revealed", 2Th2:6), Dan7:7]

4) Paul is correcting the Thessalonians' false notion that the DOTL "IS PRESENT" (this false notion is due to the negative circumstances they were presently experiencing [2Th1:4], and false informers telling them this was so [2Th2:2-3a,15]). He's correcting this by saying, "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure [noun] FIRST" (the noun-event he had already just referred to in verse 1 [our 'episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM'], as well as in 1Th4:17 ['the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR'], aka 'the hope of salvation [nouns]'[1Th5:8c]/our [SURE] Rapture)

----------["the DOTL" WILL then be "PRESENT" (with its "man of sin" in his time), once "THE DEPARTURE" (our rapture) takes place (*FIRST*)... but NOT "UNTIL" (2Th2:7b-8a)]

5) "anti-christ" can mean pseudo-christ or in-place-of-christ, and the rider of the white horse at the beginning of Revelation seems to fit this bill in several ways (recall, I said "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" match the SEALS of Rev6... and so this would be the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]"--the ARRIVAL/START/BEGINNING of the DOTL and the presence ['whose coming'] of the man of sin)

----------[the words for "conquering" and "to conquer" (Rev6:2) are the same words later used in 11:7 and 13:7, referring to when he LATER "shall overcome them, and kill them [the 2 Witnesses]" and "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (see Daniel 7:21 "made war with the saints, and prevailed against them")]

6) by this point in the Revelation (meaning, the SEALS in Rev6), we've already seen the "24 elders upon 24 thrones" (Rev4:4,10;5:8-10)... and where did they get their "stephanous/crowns"? I believe these represent "the Church which is His body" (of whom "the Rapture" solely pertains--not to saints of all other time periods [not OT saints, not trib saints, not MK saints])--The Church is told in 1Cor6:2-3, "the world shall be judged by you," and "that we shall judge angels" (hence the "thrones"... up there [and before the FIRST SEAL is opened]).

----------[see Paul's "stephanos/crown" in 2Tim4:8 ("which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day"--the Day of Christ UP THERE WITH HIM [whereas the "DOTL" is earthly-occurring; the "DofCHR," by contrast, is UP THERE WITH HIM [note: 2Th2:2 should read "DOTL"--the earth-occurring time period, not the UP THERE thing which is the "DofCHR"]--while they run concurrently, they are different locations, different groups, different purposes)]

7) "When?" Well, without disclosing my entire opinion on the chronology of The Revelation , I can say that I do detect an outline of 7-years-duration [or 2520 days] from what we see at the opening of the FIRST SEAL (Rev5/6:1-2) to His 2nd Coming to the earth (Rev19; "kings go out to battle" and "kings [were] crowned" at a certain time, per Scripture elsewhere, for example)


CONCLUSION: the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" = "the revealing of the man of sin" = the FIRST SEAL = the START of the DOTL (the 7-yr / 1 Week "DARK" portion OF that very long "time period")... many more "birth PANGS [plural]" FOLLOW that point in time (Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8[/Lk21:8-11]<---these BEGINNING of BPs are just "the beginning..." ; ) ).


So that's how I see the SEALS (ALL "future" to us... and future to our "Departure"/Rapture [which is for a specific purpose] ).



Adding this: Rev1:1 says, "to shew unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"... (so I do not believe the "Historicist view" of The Revelation is correct; the idea that the Seals started in the first century and/or that it is describing events unfolding over some 2000 years. No.)

The OT saints, and the Trib saints who die in the trib, are "resurrected" at the END of the trib (Dan12:13; Rev20:4b), but "the Church which is His body" is resurrected/raptured just before the DOTL time period commences (and we are UP THERE "WITH" Him [for the "MARRIAGE" itself] while those 7 years / 70th-Wk unfolds upon the earth, returning "WITH" Him at His 2nd Coming to the earth, FOR the wedding FEAST/SUPPER aka the earthly MK (which the OT saints, resurrected [at END of trib], won't enjoy "without us" [their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom])]

[end quoting old post]

the phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8 [correlating with the SEALS of Rev6]) STARTS with an INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" (1Th5:2-3 'birth PANG [singular]'), and this is what kicks off "the DOTL [time period]" (its ARRIVAL)

[this kicks off /STARTS "the DOTL" time period

the DOTL ARRIVES, the "in his time" of the man of sin (being "revealed", 2Th2:6), Dan7:7]

"7 years / 1 Week"--its 'beginning,' its 'middle,' its 'end

Wow! You did a good job here, which I find remarkable since you started off in error.
What you should have said! ;-)

The beginning of Birth pains is tied to "the end is not yet" and is speaking of Jewish age from 95 AD to the present. Jesus goes from "the end is not yet" to mentioning the end, and then jumping over the first half of the week to land on the abomination event that will divide the week.

Seals 2, three and four parallel what Jesus said would come: Wars, famines, and pestilences. Since these are parallel events and since Jesus was NOT YET talking about the end, there must be evidence that these seals are church age from around 95 AD. And we find that evidence easy to find: in Rev. 4 & 5 John gives us a very brief walk with Jesus as He is on the earth, then is crucified, then dies, then rises from the dead, and then ascends back into the throne room. And the first think He does is send the Holy Spirit down, then He takes the book from the hand of the Father and begins opening the seals: circa 32 AD. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. So from then to know is what we call the church age. In Eph. 3 Paul called it the dispensation of Grace.

The day of the Lord, or the start of God's wrath, CANNOT START until after the rapture. I think Paul makes these back to back events with NO TIME between: one second it is church age, then the rapture, and a second later it is the Day of the Lord.



Sorry, but you are off base here. It is the RAPTURE that will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord: 6th seal. If the rapture comes at the last trump of the Feast of trumpets, then 10 days later the 7th seal will be opened to officially start the 70th week. The AC beast is not revealed then! He is not revealed as the BEAST until He enters the temple and declares He is God. So HE IS KNOWN by all as a good guy to start. But perhaps a few will know him as the man of sin. But when He declares he is God, then people will know the AC Beast has shown up.
(note, I have just change my thinking on this.) IOW SOMEONE will be on every tv station after the rapture. He will explain why half the population suddenly disappeared. He will seem to have all the answers to earth's problems.

However, this world friendly guy is the man of sin and at the midpoint of the week WILL turn into the AC Beast. That is why John saw him rising up in chapter 11, not chapter 6.


No, wrong. The revealing is Him being revealed as the AC Beast of Rev. 13. That will not happen until the midpoint of the week. He will be the most visible man in the world during the first half of the week. My guess is, He will not take out the three kings until after He is revealed as the Beast.

God marked the 70th week for our help:
7th seal, start of the week.
7th trumpet marks the midpoint
7th vial ends the week.

Your whole argument falls apart because it is well proven that Gods wrath doesn't start until after the great tribulation at the return of Christ per the Olivet Discourse, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

Your whole argument fails because even when all 7 Vials are being announced, 15:1 states definitively [re: the "7 VIALS"] that, "for IN THEM [PLURAL] the wrath of God IS COMPLETED."... Not merely in (or commencing at) Vial #7, as you are suggesting here.






[Additionally, these are said to be the "SEVEN *LAST* PLAGUES"... and they themselves (the 7 VIALS, IN WHICH "the wrath of God IS COMPLETED") TAKE SOME MEASURE OF *TIME* to unfold upon the earth... therefore, I reject your explanation as you've stated in the above-quoted post]

False. The 7th vial is God's wrath. It plainly states it below. God's wrath is also revealed in the 6th seal and 7th trumpet. Need me to quote those, too?

The 7th Vial
Revelation 16:17
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

I will add further Scriptures as the thread progresses. There are some interesting OT verses that hint at the Rapture.

https://barrysetterfield.org/Rapture.html

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us FROM the wrath to come.

2 Thess 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
and to give YOU who are troubled REST with us WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance (which is the purpose of the GT......a purpose not accorded to the Bride) on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What I'm trying to get you to see is that there are strong comparisons between the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

6th seal
Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

7th trumpet
Revelation 11:15-19
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Bonus: the Book of Revelation is not written in chronological sequence.

The 7th Vial
Revelation 16:17
17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.