predestination vs freewill
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Your cult created that title, or your commentary did......... Leave both.
Now...
Go and read these 2 Threads.
See, I actually Thread (Teach) about the Cross.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/only-the-cross.200898/
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/gods-blood.200977/
Now...
Go and read these 2 Threads.
See, I actually Thread (Teach) about the Cross.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/only-the-cross.200898/
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/gods-blood.200977/
I am going to try and give you a lot of things to think about here. PLEASE, do not come to any preconceived notion about what I am saying, until you have read and digested the whole post. The proper understanding or misunderstanding, will impact all aspects of how one views many of the Scriptures. One must properly maintain distinction between the Wife of God - Israel - and the
the Bride of Christ - the Church - or serious error and confusion can occur. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, said this of Interest:
"Any clear understanding of the Bible requires that proper distinctions be maintained. One of these key biblical distinctions is the distinction between Israel and the Church. A failure to maintain this distinction will only result in a misinterpretation of what the Scriptures teach. One of the ways this distinction is made is the distinction between the wife and the bride. In the Bible, Israel is represented as the Wife of Jehovah, whereas the Church is represented as the Bride of Christ."
Don't think of this discussion in the light of Salvation, for Salvation works the same across all ages. God is the author and provider of a new nature.
The discussion is Eschatological in it's scope and how you see the wife and the bride, will either follow the Historicists or Futurists concept. Historicists, believe the Church is the New Israel and Futurists believe they are distinct separate entities. The Historicist says, Israel is done with, divorced and put away forever. The Futurist says, Israel has indeed been set aside but she will be restored as God's wife. The Historicist says, the Wife and the Bride are the same, they are the Elect. The Futurist says, they are both the Elect but the Wife cannot become the Bride because a Wife cannot once again become a virgin and a new Bride. 1) The wife of Jehovah is a wife - the bride of Christ is not yet a wife. 2) Jehovah, the Son of God, has a wife but Christ, as the Son of man, is not yet married. 3). Since Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of man, a temporary imbalance must be addressed in the marriage relationship. On one side we have: Jehovah, the Son of God, the Covenant Lord of Israel - MARRIED - On the other, Jesus Christ, the Son of man, the God-Man and Head of the Universal Church - UNMARRIED - . Just as Jesus Christ's had two essences merged into one, He is Fully God and Fully man; He must also take on a wife, in order that His two merged natures become fully one. His future wife, is in the Universal Church, His Bride.
This teaching, that Israel has been put away forever, has caused some, even in the so-called Christian Churches, to despise Israel and the Jews. Not realizing their error has potentially placed themselves under a curse.
Gen_12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The Wife, Israel, will undergo six steps:
1) THE MARRIAGE CONTRACT: Ex. 24:3,7; Deut. 5:1-3, Israel said, "I DO".
2) THE GREAT ADULTRY: Jer. 3:1-5, 20; Ez. 16:15-34. Israel plays the Harlot.
3) THE SEPARATION: Is. 50:1, Even after a 100 years of withheld blessings, Israel did not repent or return.
4) THE ARTICLE OF SEPARATION: Jer. 3:6-10, God separates them into another land, similarly as a man divorces his wife.
5) THE PUNISHMENT: Ez. 16:35-43; Hosea 2:6-13; Which could be said is Israel's condition to this very day.
6) THE WIFE'S RETURN AND RESTORED BLESSING: Jer. 31:31-34; Hosea 2:14-23.
The key to understanding how Israel will be returned to God, in the last days, is in this prophecy:
Jer. 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jehovah, after those days, will pour out His Spirit upon all of the elect remnant left on earth. (Joel 2:27-32). The rest have already been removed. This is the same type of Salvation as all of the Elect have experienced. Spirit regeneration, bringing about a new nature and spiritual life. However, in this prophecy, this "pouring out of the Spirit", (Joel 2:28), will at once give unto the recipients, a full knowledge of God and His Christ. This event then, differs in this way: After Jehovah pours out His Grace upon them all, they will all know Him. No need for a teacher or teaching because it says, all of Israel will know the Lord going into the Millennial Kingdom. These verses cannot be applied to the Universal or local aspect of the Church because we need to be instructed, we need preaching and it cannot be said that everyone knows the Lord.
Paul addresses the problem with Jehovah's wife in Romans 10:
Rom 10:19-21 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses says, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. And Isaiah is very bold, and says, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me. But as to Israel he says, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
One of the purposes of the church is given here. The church, mostly made up of Gentiles, is used to provoke Israel to jealousy. The Gentiles were nothing in the sight of Israel but in the aspect of the Church, and teaching Christ, it angers Israel. Paul went on to say:
Rom 11:1,2 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:
This is an argument, posed against those, who might think Israel has been permanently cast off. Paul says God forbid. To believe somehow, that the people of Israel could abrogate the covenant of the Lord, would throw the whole of God's promises into doubt. He has already made the distinction between the "seed" which is of the flesh and the "seed" which is of the Spirit. He goes onto say, that God has a remnant set aside for Himself.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Israel and the Church are distinct, in another way. Israel is an Elect Nation (Flesh) and within her is an Elect people (Spiritual). The Church is made up of Spiritually Elect people only. Israel's hope is in the establishment of the Kingdom and it's King - this is an earthly oriented hope. The hope of the Church is in the coming of their Savior and High Priest - this is a heavenly oriented hope. While the King and the High Priest are one and the same - Jesus Christ - what they are looking forward too, is not the same.
When Christ was asked about reestablishing the Kingdom of Israel, He did not say it would not be established. He said:
Act 1:6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.
In revelation 21:2&3 - We see the culmination of these two hopes becoming one. The Church - called the tabernacle of God - comes down out of the heavenly places and is married to the earthly Kingdom of God. If you will then, the Wife of God meets the Bride of Christ. All things become enjoined around The Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
I will stop here. Please ask further questions, if need arises. This subject is huge and complex but I am willing to work through it if you so desire.
the Bride of Christ - the Church - or serious error and confusion can occur. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, said this of Interest:
"Any clear understanding of the Bible requires that proper distinctions be maintained. One of these key biblical distinctions is the distinction between Israel and the Church. A failure to maintain this distinction will only result in a misinterpretation of what the Scriptures teach. One of the ways this distinction is made is the distinction between the wife and the bride. In the Bible, Israel is represented as the Wife of Jehovah, whereas the Church is represented as the Bride of Christ."
Don't think of this discussion in the light of Salvation, for Salvation works the same across all ages. God is the author and provider of a new nature.
The discussion is Eschatological in it's scope and how you see the wife and the bride, will either follow the Historicists or Futurists concept. Historicists, believe the Church is the New Israel and Futurists believe they are distinct separate entities. The Historicist says, Israel is done with, divorced and put away forever. The Futurist says, Israel has indeed been set aside but she will be restored as God's wife. The Historicist says, the Wife and the Bride are the same, they are the Elect. The Futurist says, they are both the Elect but the Wife cannot become the Bride because a Wife cannot once again become a virgin and a new Bride. 1) The wife of Jehovah is a wife - the bride of Christ is not yet a wife. 2) Jehovah, the Son of God, has a wife but Christ, as the Son of man, is not yet married. 3). Since Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of man, a temporary imbalance must be addressed in the marriage relationship. On one side we have: Jehovah, the Son of God, the Covenant Lord of Israel - MARRIED - On the other, Jesus Christ, the Son of man, the God-Man and Head of the Universal Church - UNMARRIED - . Just as Jesus Christ's had two essences merged into one, He is Fully God and Fully man; He must also take on a wife, in order that His two merged natures become fully one. His future wife, is in the Universal Church, His Bride.
This teaching, that Israel has been put away forever, has caused some, even in the so-called Christian Churches, to despise Israel and the Jews. Not realizing their error has potentially placed themselves under a curse.
Gen_12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The Wife, Israel, will undergo six steps:
1) THE MARRIAGE CONTRACT: Ex. 24:3,7; Deut. 5:1-3, Israel said, "I DO".
2) THE GREAT ADULTRY: Jer. 3:1-5, 20; Ez. 16:15-34. Israel plays the Harlot.
3) THE SEPARATION: Is. 50:1, Even after a 100 years of withheld blessings, Israel did not repent or return.
4) THE ARTICLE OF SEPARATION: Jer. 3:6-10, God separates them into another land, similarly as a man divorces his wife.
5) THE PUNISHMENT: Ez. 16:35-43; Hosea 2:6-13; Which could be said is Israel's condition to this very day.
6) THE WIFE'S RETURN AND RESTORED BLESSING: Jer. 31:31-34; Hosea 2:14-23.
The key to understanding how Israel will be returned to God, in the last days, is in this prophecy:
Jer. 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jehovah, after those days, will pour out His Spirit upon all of the elect remnant left on earth. (Joel 2:27-32). The rest have already been removed. This is the same type of Salvation as all of the Elect have experienced. Spirit regeneration, bringing about a new nature and spiritual life. However, in this prophecy, this "pouring out of the Spirit", (Joel 2:28), will at once give unto the recipients, a full knowledge of God and His Christ. This event then, differs in this way: After Jehovah pours out His Grace upon them all, they will all know Him. No need for a teacher or teaching because it says, all of Israel will know the Lord going into the Millennial Kingdom. These verses cannot be applied to the Universal or local aspect of the Church because we need to be instructed, we need preaching and it cannot be said that everyone knows the Lord.
Paul addresses the problem with Jehovah's wife in Romans 10:
Rom 10:19-21 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses says, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. And Isaiah is very bold, and says, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me. But as to Israel he says, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
One of the purposes of the church is given here. The church, mostly made up of Gentiles, is used to provoke Israel to jealousy. The Gentiles were nothing in the sight of Israel but in the aspect of the Church, and teaching Christ, it angers Israel. Paul went on to say:
Rom 11:1,2 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:
This is an argument, posed against those, who might think Israel has been permanently cast off. Paul says God forbid. To believe somehow, that the people of Israel could abrogate the covenant of the Lord, would throw the whole of God's promises into doubt. He has already made the distinction between the "seed" which is of the flesh and the "seed" which is of the Spirit. He goes onto say, that God has a remnant set aside for Himself.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Israel and the Church are distinct, in another way. Israel is an Elect Nation (Flesh) and within her is an Elect people (Spiritual). The Church is made up of Spiritually Elect people only. Israel's hope is in the establishment of the Kingdom and it's King - this is an earthly oriented hope. The hope of the Church is in the coming of their Savior and High Priest - this is a heavenly oriented hope. While the King and the High Priest are one and the same - Jesus Christ - what they are looking forward too, is not the same.
When Christ was asked about reestablishing the Kingdom of Israel, He did not say it would not be established. He said:
Act 1:6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.
In revelation 21:2&3 - We see the culmination of these two hopes becoming one. The Church - called the tabernacle of God - comes down out of the heavenly places and is married to the earthly Kingdom of God. If you will then, the Wife of God meets the Bride of Christ. All things become enjoined around The Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
I will stop here. Please ask further questions, if need arises. This subject is huge and complex but I am willing to work through it if you so desire.
So you're saying that God infuses a belief in Christ as a gift to those whom He has chosen, which belief, is tantamount to, and an indication of, having been saved?
And through that belief (given solely as a gift), is manifested within us the desire and wisdom to rest completely from our works for salvation to instead trust exclusively in those works achieved by Christ?
Hmmm. Okay, I can go with that.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
And through that belief (given solely as a gift), is manifested within us the desire and wisdom to rest completely from our works for salvation to instead trust exclusively in those works achieved by Christ?
Hmmm. Okay, I can go with that.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Is Repentance before or after being born anew? Is not repentance itself the gift of God?
Acts_5:31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
Acts_11:18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.
When God grants Repentance, it is "granted" in the new nature. Like all aspects of Salvation, nothing can occur without the New Birth first being applied to an individual. The New Birth brings about the spirit of Repentance when it is exposed to the Word of God. If no Birth, then no Repentance.
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
When John the Baptizer, taught his baptism, he did not teach a Baptism unto or towards Repentance but a Baptism "because of" Repentance.
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
John was saying: Where is the fruit of your Repentance? Show it to me.
Mat 3:9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Acts_5:31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
Acts_11:18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.
When God grants Repentance, it is "granted" in the new nature. Like all aspects of Salvation, nothing can occur without the New Birth first being applied to an individual. The New Birth brings about the spirit of Repentance when it is exposed to the Word of God. If no Birth, then no Repentance.
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
When John the Baptizer, taught his baptism, he did not teach a Baptism unto or towards Repentance but a Baptism "because of" Repentance.
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
John was saying: Where is the fruit of your Repentance? Show it to me.
Mat 3:9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
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awelight,
So that we both are at the same starting point, besides that it is a geographical location, please define what you mean when you say (earthly) "Israel" ; that is, which people over time are those you think will be of the "remnant? All Jews? Certain Jews, and if so, what draws the distinction between them, and what happens to those who neither are of the elect nor of the remnant (if any remain)?
I realize this may be a kind of nebulous question and that I might not have asked in the best way possible, nevertheless, it is one that I feel is important for us to be able to communicate since a nation is its people. Thx.
So that we both are at the same starting point, besides that it is a geographical location, please define what you mean when you say (earthly) "Israel" ; that is, which people over time are those you think will be of the "remnant? All Jews? Certain Jews, and if so, what draws the distinction between them, and what happens to those who neither are of the elect nor of the remnant (if any remain)?
I realize this may be a kind of nebulous question and that I might not have asked in the best way possible, nevertheless, it is one that I feel is important for us to be able to communicate since a nation is its people. Thx.
In thinking about my prior reply, a better way to have stated my question is this: since Israel is a nation, it would seem
logical to me that whatever is to happen to the nation (spiritually speaking), must also happen to all of its citizens, past, present and future. If it doesn't, it would then mean that it hasn't happened to the nation and therefore, the term nation would be meaningless, or that we would be making it mean what we wanted it to mean, when we chose to change its meaning.
logical to me that whatever is to happen to the nation (spiritually speaking), must also happen to all of its citizens, past, present and future. If it doesn't, it would then mean that it hasn't happened to the nation and therefore, the term nation would be meaningless, or that we would be making it mean what we wanted it to mean, when we chose to change its meaning.
Repent mean turn to God, in submission to Him as Lord.
If we are called to turn to God as our Lord, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.
Obeying this command of the Gospel is the action of obedience required of faith, which is why it’s called the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
This is the Gospel Jesus Christ commissioned His Apostles to preach to the nations.
This is what Jesus sent Paul to do, on the road to Damascus.
Words of Christ in red.
I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20
JPT
If we are called to turn to God as our Lord, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.
Obeying this command of the Gospel is the action of obedience required of faith, which is why it’s called the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
This is the Gospel Jesus Christ commissioned His Apostles to preach to the nations.
This is what Jesus sent Paul to do, on the road to Damascus.
Words of Christ in red.
I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20
- in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins
- then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God
JPT
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Okay. If I understand the meaning of your question fully, you are having a problem with the term "nation".
God chose out of the world of nations, the nation of Israel. Israel started out as one chosen man - Jacob. His name was changed by God to Israel. Then as a nation of people, they were called Israel:
Deu. 7:6-9 For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples: but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he swore unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that Jehovah thy God, he is God, the faithful God, who keeps covenant and lovingkindness with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations,
The Nation of Israel, was to be the nation from which the world would learn about God. The message would flow through her. The Law was given to her. Jesus Christ would come from the lineage of her. All things flowed through her. But due to the hardness of her people's heart, they often times were punished and sent into captivity. By their lack of obedience, blessings were withheld from her. Even in this present day, she has been set aside with blindness while Christ builds His Universal Church. However, she will be restored because of the Lord's covenant promise:
Exo 19:5,6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
They will be restored because the gifts and callings of the Lord are irrevocable:
Rom 11:28-31 As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of. For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.
Many of the non-Jews, and perhaps among the Jews, felt that the promises of God had failed. Israel was not receiving blessings from God nor were they being established as a Kingdom nor did they have the promised Messiah, the King.
While God had chosen the nation of Israel, to be the conduit, by which the knowledge of God and salvation would flow (Gen.12:1-3; Rom.3:1-3); what national Israel did not comprehend, was that there was an Election within the Election. They were chosen as the Lord's conduit to the world but all of the people of the nation were not true Israel. The nation which was referred to in Exo. 19,5&6, is a nation made up of Elect Jews, in the coming Kingdom. (Rom. 9-11). Therefore the promise was not dependent upon the fleshly seed of Abraham but upon the spiritual seed out from God's Election.
In the future, when God fulfills all of His promise, The Nation of Israel, will be realized in full. A nation of Jewish Elect. They will be a kingdom that belongs to the King. A chosen nation among the nations. Because of their present disobedience, the Gentiles have been grafted in and thus into their promise, given to them by God.
Rom 11:22-24 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
The Root is Christ, their "own" olive tree is Elect Israel. The "wild" olive tree, are the Gentiles. The Gentiles being grafted into the "good" tree, are the Elect Gentiles, who mostly comprise the Church. But please take note here: The Jews are grafted into their "own" olive tree. This demonstrates, the continuation of the Covenant with Israel - Versus - the Gentiles, who are said to be grafted into a "good" olive tree. Paul constitutes the Elect Gentiles as "wild" because they were not brought up in the Laws, Covenants and knowledge of God. Also, a wild olive tree does not bare fruit but if you graft it into a "good" tree, it will bare fruit. The Root of both is Jesus Christ.
Therefore, the Elect Jews, are National Israel, fully restored. Christ will sit upon the throne of David, in the city of Jerusalem. This is what Israel has always looked for. The completion of OT Promise. They are the wife of Jehovah. The Church is grafted into these Promises as the Bride of the Lamb. Jehovah, the Covenant Lord of Israel - Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God. All the same - Lord of lords, King of kings, Alpha and Omega.
Zachariah had this to say, from the Lord, about the days of the restored Israel:
Zec 8:6-8 Thus says Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvelous in mine eyes? says Jehovah of hosts. Thus says Jehovah of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; and I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
Zec 8:20-23 Thus says Jehovah of hosts: It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah. Thus says Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.
Finally, for now... I will close with this. Found this comment while I was doing other research. Thought it was well stated, so I copied it:
Romans 11 -
Paul answered his question of whether God had rejected the Jews with the strongest negative he employed (μὴ γένοιτο). Paul used this negative twice in this passage to make this point (vv. 1, 11). Despite the nation’s rejection of their Messiah, God had a future plan for national Israel independent and apart from His work of forming the Church, the body of Christ. Thus, Paul emphatically stated, “God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.” One may ask why Paul kept hammering the point that his subject was racial Jews, national Israel? Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Paul anticipated the rise of false teachings which maintain the Church is the new Israel or that all blessings to Israel (present and future) now come through the Church. Paul made this point so strongly that one has to exert great effort and wrestle the text to get a different meaning. Those who maintain God has no future plan for national Israel have done just this. The greatest theological tragedy in the past 1,900 years is that most of Christendom has rejected Pauline theology and declared exactly the opposite what Paul wrote: Israel is independent from the Church and that God has a future plan for Israel as a national entity.
God chose out of the world of nations, the nation of Israel. Israel started out as one chosen man - Jacob. His name was changed by God to Israel. Then as a nation of people, they were called Israel:
Deu. 7:6-9 For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples: but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he swore unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that Jehovah thy God, he is God, the faithful God, who keeps covenant and lovingkindness with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations,
The Nation of Israel, was to be the nation from which the world would learn about God. The message would flow through her. The Law was given to her. Jesus Christ would come from the lineage of her. All things flowed through her. But due to the hardness of her people's heart, they often times were punished and sent into captivity. By their lack of obedience, blessings were withheld from her. Even in this present day, she has been set aside with blindness while Christ builds His Universal Church. However, she will be restored because of the Lord's covenant promise:
Exo 19:5,6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
They will be restored because the gifts and callings of the Lord are irrevocable:
Rom 11:28-31 As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of. For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.
Many of the non-Jews, and perhaps among the Jews, felt that the promises of God had failed. Israel was not receiving blessings from God nor were they being established as a Kingdom nor did they have the promised Messiah, the King.
While God had chosen the nation of Israel, to be the conduit, by which the knowledge of God and salvation would flow (Gen.12:1-3; Rom.3:1-3); what national Israel did not comprehend, was that there was an Election within the Election. They were chosen as the Lord's conduit to the world but all of the people of the nation were not true Israel. The nation which was referred to in Exo. 19,5&6, is a nation made up of Elect Jews, in the coming Kingdom. (Rom. 9-11). Therefore the promise was not dependent upon the fleshly seed of Abraham but upon the spiritual seed out from God's Election.
In the future, when God fulfills all of His promise, The Nation of Israel, will be realized in full. A nation of Jewish Elect. They will be a kingdom that belongs to the King. A chosen nation among the nations. Because of their present disobedience, the Gentiles have been grafted in and thus into their promise, given to them by God.
Rom 11:22-24 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
The Root is Christ, their "own" olive tree is Elect Israel. The "wild" olive tree, are the Gentiles. The Gentiles being grafted into the "good" tree, are the Elect Gentiles, who mostly comprise the Church. But please take note here: The Jews are grafted into their "own" olive tree. This demonstrates, the continuation of the Covenant with Israel - Versus - the Gentiles, who are said to be grafted into a "good" olive tree. Paul constitutes the Elect Gentiles as "wild" because they were not brought up in the Laws, Covenants and knowledge of God. Also, a wild olive tree does not bare fruit but if you graft it into a "good" tree, it will bare fruit. The Root of both is Jesus Christ.
Therefore, the Elect Jews, are National Israel, fully restored. Christ will sit upon the throne of David, in the city of Jerusalem. This is what Israel has always looked for. The completion of OT Promise. They are the wife of Jehovah. The Church is grafted into these Promises as the Bride of the Lamb. Jehovah, the Covenant Lord of Israel - Jesus Christ - the Lamb of God. All the same - Lord of lords, King of kings, Alpha and Omega.
Zachariah had this to say, from the Lord, about the days of the restored Israel:
Zec 8:6-8 Thus says Jehovah of hosts: If it be marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvelous in mine eyes? says Jehovah of hosts. Thus says Jehovah of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; and I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
Zec 8:20-23 Thus says Jehovah of hosts: It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah. Thus says Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.
Finally, for now... I will close with this. Found this comment while I was doing other research. Thought it was well stated, so I copied it:
Romans 11 -
Paul answered his question of whether God had rejected the Jews with the strongest negative he employed (μὴ γένοιτο). Paul used this negative twice in this passage to make this point (vv. 1, 11). Despite the nation’s rejection of their Messiah, God had a future plan for national Israel independent and apart from His work of forming the Church, the body of Christ. Thus, Paul emphatically stated, “God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.” One may ask why Paul kept hammering the point that his subject was racial Jews, national Israel? Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Paul anticipated the rise of false teachings which maintain the Church is the new Israel or that all blessings to Israel (present and future) now come through the Church. Paul made this point so strongly that one has to exert great effort and wrestle the text to get a different meaning. Those who maintain God has no future plan for national Israel have done just this. The greatest theological tragedy in the past 1,900 years is that most of Christendom has rejected Pauline theology and declared exactly the opposite what Paul wrote: Israel is independent from the Church and that God has a future plan for Israel as a national entity.