2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

cv5 · Sep 25, 2021

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659341

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659388

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659421

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"Yes I totally agree the translators really blew it there. This term is only used twice ln all of the NT.....and it has nothing whatsoever to do with apostasy.

You see, in Acts 21:21, departing from Moses, far from being "apostasy", is actually a POSITIVE and the right thing to do! What do you think Paul was doing when he was preaching in the synagogues? He was encouraging the Jews everywhere to depart from Moses and come to Christ for salvation. The entire book of Hebrews is exhortation to Jews to depart from Moses and come to Christ for salvation."

"In other words the correct and accurate SPIRITUAL, BIBLICAL, application of "apostasia" used in Acts 21:21 would be that of "leaving from a previous standing" TO THE FAITH. Exactly the opposite of spiritual apostasy!
And that is the only contextual touchstone that we possess!"

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"I get what you're saying believe me. But I think it's an error to say that departing from the faith is a concern in either of the instances where this term is being used.

In fact the framework of the 2Thes 2:1-10 is built around some party leaving, some entity departing, BEFORE someone/something is revealed/initiates (vv. 3 and 7). I see nothing about spiritual rebellion among the faithful Thessalonians here. In fact Paul has no concerns about Thessalonians' spiritual condition.......quite the contrary he is only and always COMMMENDING them for their true legitimate faithful believing. They seem to be standouts among the gentiles in that regard.

I truly and honestly think that the translators blew it in this particular case. It is inconceivable to say that departure from obsolete Mosaic Judaism (Acts 21:21) is anything but the right thing to do. How can it be....it is an essential aspect of the gospel message to the Jews! We can both agree that it is a return TO mosaic Judaism that is the apostasy which Paul so passionately rails against in Galatians 3.

I have to tell you I am firmly (very firmly) in the camp of "the departure" being intentionally used to indicate the RAPTURE. This same rapture the Thessalonians already knew about and understood to be true from Paul's earlier ORAL teaching to them. Which is why Paul referred to it AGAIN by codifying "the departure" in 2Thes 2:3, into a written manuscript. Which is perfectly understandable because Paul was writing 2Thes 2:1-10 for the express purpose of reinforcing his earlier teachings on the matter!"

walknlight · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

I agree. The Greek is precise.

Mat 24:10, And then shall manyG4183 be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

ἀποστασία (apostasía | ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Derivation: feminine of the same as G647;
Strong's: defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy")
KJV: —falling away, forsake.
See: G647

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall departG868 from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 AV)

ἀφίστημι (aphístēmi | af-is'-tay-mee)
Derivation: from G575 and G2476;
Strong's: to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.
KJV: —depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self

Heb 6:6 If they shall fallG3895 away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

παραπίπτω (parapíptō | par-ap-ip'-to)
Derivation: from G3844 and G4098;
Strong's: to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize
KJV: —fall away.

just letting His Spirit move.....

God Bless!

SaltwaterGirl · Sep 26, 2021

Greetings, @cv5

2 Thessalonians 1:7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,"

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thessalonians 1:10 "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired (marveled at) in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed).

Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

2 Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him.

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you (confuse you) and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ (the Day of the Lord))" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the 7th trump.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (it will not be), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is apostasy.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 26, 2021

^ ... so what does "apostasy" mean?

JaumeJ · Sep 26, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Essentially it is passing on teaching as from God that is not from Him. as from Him.

cv5 · Sep 26, 2021

SaltwaterGirl said:

Greetings, @cv5

2 Thessalonians 1:7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,"

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thessalonians 1:10 "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired (marveled at) in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed).

Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

2 Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him.

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you (confuse you) and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ (the Day of the Lord))" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the 7th trump.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (it will not be), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is apostasy.

Sorry.....disagree with your conclusion. Take a look at Hebrews 9:8. In Acts 21:21, the meaning there is a departing FROM Moses (and the obsolete apostate religious practices) TO FAITH. Flipped from what people think is the "norm".

It appears to me that over time, translators have redefined the term. I think it should be constrained to a precise meaning " leaving from a previous standing" (quote from Strongs 646).

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

That's how I see it also, pretty much.

"literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." " - HELPS Word-studies (at BibleHub)

And under "Thayer's Greek Lexicon" (at BibleHub) - "The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις [apostasis]; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24)."

cv5 · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

I need to correct any confusion. Text actually says "teach "apostasian"," a noun.

Question: was Paul teaching apostasy? Of course not.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

Right (re: G646 in Acts 21:21 ^ ) <--And under that word, says, "Feminine of the same as apostasion [G647]" - Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (at BibleHub - https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm )

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 26, 2021

SEE ALSO what I put (on this Subject) over on the other thread:

Post #32 - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-is-this-the-rapture.201579/post-4660657

ResidentAlien · Sep 26, 2021

I agree "departure" is a good translation; however, it cannot and does not mean the rapture. I already wasted a whole day recently debating this question and I don't intend to waste another. If someone wants it to mean rapture they'll find a way to make it mean rapture no matter how much evidence you present to the contrary.

SomeDisciple · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.
What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law

It turns out that becoming a Christian is hardly a departure from Moses and the law. We don't make the law void through faith, but we establish the law.

cv5 · Sep 26, 2021

SomeDisciple said:

You tell me if Christianity makes the Mosaic Covenant obsolete. That is the theme of the ENTIRE book of Hebrews.
Did you forget Galatians 3?

And of course I am NOT talking about God's eternal moral laws.

And for the most part....it WAS apostate Judaism in Jesus' day. Not the real thing. For if the Jews WERE worshipping God from the heart....they would have received their Messiah....rather than murdering Him.

Undoubtedly, Acts 21:21 is refering to a departing of the faith. From the false to the true.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 26, 2021

ResidentAlien said:

ONLY the word "harpazo / SNATCH / caught up / rapture [G726]" MEANS [what WE call] "Rapture".

But the following phrases are ASSOCIATED with this ^ :

-- "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (not DEFINED as "SNATCH [G726]"... but associated with where we'll be GOING at that time);

-- "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (not DEFINED as "SNATCH [G726]"... but associated with where we'll be GOING at that time);

-- "the One DELIVERING *us* OUT-FROM the wrath coming" (not DEFINED as "SNATCH [G726]"... but associated with where we'll be GOING at that time);

-- "[put on... for an helmet] the HOPE of salvation" i.e. an ESCHATOLOGICAL salvation--per Paul's CONTEXT in these TWO EPISTLES--(not DEFINED as "SNATCH [G726]"... but associated with where we'll be GOING at that time);

-- "THE Departure FIRST" (not DEFINED as "SNATCH [G726]"... but associated with where we'll be GOING at that time);

-- (and a few others found in these TWO EPISTLES, too...)

[lame argument, as I see it... as Paul uses A VARIETY OF TERMS and PHRASES, in these two epistles, to refer to what will take place AT THAT TIME]

Icedaisey · Sep 26, 2021

2 Thessalonians 2 tells us the great tribulation won't begin until the Antichrist declares himself.

How that shall come to pass is found in the OT book of Daniel 9:27

cv5 · Sep 26, 2021

ResidentAlien said:

Totally agree. Definitely does not mean rapture. How the post-tribbers conjured that up out of nowhere is a mystery.

ewq1938 · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

No, you do not agree. Do you even know what's being discussed in this thread? Do you even remember that you started this thread and titled it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

RA just said the departure in that verse IS NOT the rapture and you said you agree yet you say the opposite in the title of this thread.

cv5 · Sep 26, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Just to be clear:

The sweep of the passage and this specific verse is indicating the inevitability of the pre-trib rapture. NOT THE TERM "APOSTASIA". Strong's # 646 literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

All better now?

ewq1938 · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

No, you are still confused. "departure" is from the word apostasia.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come an apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That is not rapture like you and others have claimed. It is and always has been an apostasy being spoken about. The rapture is not mentioned in that verse.

Runningman · Sep 26, 2021

cv5 said:

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659341

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659388

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4659421

===========================================================================================================

"Yes I totally agree the translators really blew it there. This term is only used twice ln all of the NT.....and it has nothing whatsoever to do with apostasy.

You see, in Acts 21:21, departing from Moses, far from being "apostasy", is actually a POSITIVE and the right thing to do! What do you think Paul was doing when he was preaching in the synagogues? He was encouraging the Jews everywhere to depart from Moses and come to Christ for salvation. The entire book of Hebrews is exhortation to Jews to depart from Moses and come to Christ for salvation."

"In other words the correct and accurate SPIRITUAL, BIBLICAL, application of "apostasia" used in Acts 21:21 would be that of "leaving from a previous standing" TO THE FAITH. Exactly the opposite of spiritual apostasy!
And that is the only contextual touchstone that we possess!"

===========================================================================================================

"I get what you're saying believe me. But I think it's an error to say that departing from the faith is a concern in either of the instances where this term is being used.

In fact the framework of the 2Thes 2:1-10 is built around some party leaving, some entity departing, BEFORE someone/something is revealed/initiates (vv. 3 and 7). I see nothing about spiritual rebellion among the faithful Thessalonians here. In fact Paul has no concerns about Thessalonians' spiritual condition.......quite the contrary he is only and always COMMMENDING them for their true legitimate faithful believing. They seem to be standouts among the gentiles in that regard.

I truly and honestly think that the translators blew it in this particular case. It is inconceivable to say that departure from obsolete Mosaic Judaism (Acts 21:21) is anything but the right thing to do. How can it be....it is an essential aspect of the gospel message to the Jews! We can both agree that it is a return TO mosaic Judaism that is the apostasy which Paul so passionately rails against in Galatians 3.

I have to tell you I am firmly (very firmly) in the camp of "the departure" being intentionally used to indicate the RAPTURE. This same rapture the Thessalonians already knew about and understood to be true from Paul's earlier ORAL teaching to them. Which is why Paul referred to it AGAIN by codifying "the departure" in 2Thes 2:3, into a written manuscript. Which is perfectly understandable because Paul was writing 2Thes 2:1-10 for the express purpose of reinforcing his earlier teachings on the matter!"

You got this all wrong. 🤦‍♂️

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

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