Christmas tree -- vestige from Babylonian worship

Wow, 1,253 views in two days!

We must be over the target. All of this discussion over the pagan aspects of Christmas was not my intention, I assumed that was common knowledge, but apparently this has struck a nerve.

Christmas is a tradition and for many, it is a celebration of our Savior's birth. The Magi gave gifts, Christ was a gift, and people, in the spirit of giving, give gifts. It's a sacred thing for a lot of people. I was surprised when I learned of some of the roots of the holiday.
The holiday has kept Christ in our society. As with Easter, there are some unfortunate connections. People who don't believe in Christ want the holidays to mean something else. So there's always 2 things going on.
You have Santa and the Easter bunny, and you have baby Jesus and resurrected Jesus. Take your pick.
I do wonder how many children, when they learn that they were lied to about Santa and the Easter bunny, assume the same thing about Jesus.

Christmas is a very sacred holiday for me. It was far and away my favorite holiday growing up. I met with a very strict group that completely ignored it because it was not in the Bible. I also meet with a group that sees it as an opportunity to talk about the incarnation of Jesus.

I have seen a range of feelings on this and understand to a certain extent the range. But the vehement response and willful distortion of what was being said, blatant attempt to hijack the thread, and the gas lighting were what surprised me.

As an English-Canadian Christian, Christmas was always my favorite time of the year.
In July, 1994, I walked into a Vineyard church just west of Toronto, Canada, and through the Holy Spirit and faith in Jesus, met my Father. He loves me so much. I've never been without Him since. I've had some huge obstacles to overcome, and I've stumbled numerous times, but He's never left me. I owe Him everything.
Then He taught me of my ancestry. Of how the northern kingdom of the house of Israel, aka Ephraim, were exiled for worshipping idols and demons (see 2 Kings 17). Of how my ancestor, a Levite, was taken to Assyria and as far as I know, the family line has never returned. Our Father must've been heart-broken!
I can't explain why, but whenever I talk or type about this, I get overwhelmed with grief and even cry. When I first learned of the exile and that my ancestor was in it, I resolved deep in my being that as far as I was concerned, this would never happen again. So knowing of the pagan holiday of Saturnalia, and of the pagan goddess Eostre, I've had to change a few things.
For me, there is now Passover, and the possible, perhaps probable, birth of our Savior during the fall harvest festival of Sukkot.

I grew up in Norman Rockwell America (I went to the same HS as Norman Rockwell, his paintings look a whole lot like where I grew up). However, one of my ancestors escaped from a Turkish slave ship and was probably an escaped Jew who came to America to escape the slave masters. I have seen the range of wonderful Christmas celebrations with candlelight service and people caroling on the streets while at the same time my best friend was Jewish and I went to the synagogue with him and ate Passover with them. I later worshipped with a sect of the Brethren which pretended like there was no such thing as Christmas and completely ignored the holiday. I now meet with Evangelical Christians who think they can use the holiday to preach the gospel. I lived in England, I lived in Taiwan, so I have seen many different approaches. I was comfortable in my own approach of being very strict with my own celebration and very general with what others did. For quite a few years I minimized the importance of this to where it was next to nothing.

But just recently it hit me that this celebration is here because Jesus is Lord and He is telling us something by it. Paul said the feast days are a shadow of things to come and I have come to the conclusion this doesn't just mean the ones in Leviticus, but it also includes Christmas and Easter.

Whatever day He was born on, the important thing is that He was born...born to be crucified for the sins of mankind. One must accept His gift by faith, it's not automatic.
Every day for a believer is Christmas! I'm not out to condemn or try to prove those who celebrate Christmas as bad.
For me, I got to the place where I could no longer celebrate a December birth for our Savior or use the word Easter for His death and resurrection. These are not salvation issues, though for me, they are important. Notice how I say, "For me." What you do is between you and our Lord.

I want to thank everyone for their participation and comments. Especially those who disagreed with the thread. You reminded me of the Lord's word

Luke 6:26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...y-stripper-baby-daddy-joseph-pimp-walk-video/

A window into the Godless world and the perverted anti Christian sentiment.

"As “Jesus” is twerking, the teachers encourage “Mary” to dance on a candy cane stripper pole."

Sodom and Gomorrah

Saturday Night Live also ran a skit last night joking about taking turns on Roger Stone’s 75-year-old wife who has cancer.

It’s now “funny” on the left to joke about gang-raping the wife of a prominent conservative with cancer.

Sodom and Gomorrah

Corporate Punishment -- Sodom and Gomorrah

Jude 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

This word is not written to Hollywood, or Madison Avenue, or Las Vegas Casinos. It is written to the believers in Christ! This word is to the church! This is not a warning given to the unsaved world, it is a warning given to the redeemed of the Lord! We have already learned that these men will "turn the grace of God into lasciviousness". Many of us have seen and become alarmed by this. We are not talking about some member of the congregation caught up in sin secretly, no we are talking about the pastors and leaders openly flaunting a reprobate lifestyle. Apostasy is thought of as doctrinal error and heresy, but Jude makes it clear it will be manifested by fleshly lusts and lasciviousness. We saw it with the example of Israel in the wilderness, we saw it with the Angels who fell and we see it with Sodom and Gomorrah. One symptom of apostasy is sexual immorality and perversion. Many think that the history of a Christmas tree being used in idol worship doesn't matter because to them it is simply a decoration. They think they are strong and wiser than the demons and evil spirits. They look at all of these pagan practices as trivial, no the real problem is the sexual immorality and perversion. It is linked, just like a flu that kills you begins with a very tiny virus. They corrupt themselves with brute beasts.

Once again let us not think this is some ancient history. The pedophile priests in the Catholic church demonstrated that this is definitely true of people claiming to be Christians today. There have been many contemporary Christian leaders caught up in perversion and defiling themselves with the flesh walking after their own lusts.

Apostasy begins with unbelief in the word of God but it ends with physical degradation. If you want to deal with the physical degradation you have to dig down to the root cause. Jude is using Sodom and Gomorrah as a reference point for apostasy. In other words if we look at these three examples that are given to us we can compare them with modern examples of apostasy. Some churches will be like the Israelites in the wilderness balking at the Lord's word to enter the good land, some will be snared up in occultic and evil spirits and some will be like Sodom and Gomorrah.

What is the feast of unleavened bread? You remove all the leaven out of your house. That means we would clean up all the perversion and lasciviousness, we would remove all the occultic practices, we would sweep up all the unbelief and then that would lead us to seeing we had picked up many pagan practices that were not of God. Get rid of those also. If you are serious about removing the leaven these pagan practices must go.

So to get a better handle let's consider Lot. He was with Abraham but at some point decided to separate himself from Abraham. He lifted up his eyes and chose the plain of Jordan. He thought he had a better place, a better idea, and so he peeled off from Abraham. The apostate churches have a history that traces back to a spiritual walk and you can see a time when there was a fork in the road and they began to peel off. Even if you are just slightly off over time you will end up very far away from God. Meanwhile Abraham chose the heights of Hebron (communion).

Lot is called "a righteous man" and God goes to some lengths to save Lot. He then chooses to dwell in the cities of the plain and pitched his tent towards Sodom. There is a war, Lot is taken captive and then rescued by Abraham and yet three chapters later Lot is there as a city alderman sitting in the city gate. This is a picture, many churches have become very influential in the major cities. They have an open door with the mayor, they are politically active. They have descended into the plain and set their tent towards the city. Now if you tell them this they will get quite offended because it is a fundamental reason they peeled off from Abraham. They believe that Christians should not be up on Mount Hebron (the mountain of communion) but rather get down in the plain and involved in the city. It is a fundamental tenet of something called "dominion theology" which is a very modern example of apostasy. We are ambassadors of the kingdom, we are not here making our home here and trying to bring in the kingdom through political reform.

That said we learn that Abraham is well trained in the art of war, has 318 soldiers as part of his household, take charge and leads them against these kings and defeats them. These apostasy groups complain about Christians that you have to do something and can't just worship God. Yet they are untrained and easy prey whereas Abraham is well trained with the full armor of God. God says that Abraham will become a great and mighty nation in whom all the nations of the earth will be blessed because he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord. This is where apostasy comes in, you don't command your children, you don't command your household, you don't keep the way of the Lord.

But let's return to Sodom and these churches who are involved in the politics trying to reform the city. The Lord said "if I find 50 righteous in the city then I will spare the place for their sakes". All these social justice warriors who think they are so righteous, they are deceiving themselves. The only way sinful man can be right with God is with constant fellowship and communion. Ultimately God says "I will not destroy it for ten's sake". What a pathetic testimony these churches have, they didn't even have ten righteous! In the end only 3 were saved and only one was said to be "righteous".

This is a great lesson for us. We think we are right in the way we have chosen. OK, what is the fruit of that ministry. I'm not interested in how many people in the service, how big the mega church is, just want to know how many righteous are there that would actually make a difference in the city?

To sit in the gate indicated Lot was part of the country board of supervisors or a city official. Then when they say they will abide in the street all night it was like saying you were going to take a walk through Central Park at 10pm. Lot knew the city was far too dangerous for that. We then learn the city is filled with perverts surrounding the house. Then the mob basically says to Lot you are an outsider, get out of the way or we'll rape you too.

It is important part of the story -- the messengers from the Lord had a mission, to find the righteous, tell them God was going to destroy the city and to get out, and when Lot shares this message with the sons in Law "he seemed as one that mocked". They thought it was a big joke. The angels had to drag Lot and his daughters and wife out of the city.

Lot was "vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked". This is a very clear symptom of the apostasy. If you are vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked know that you are living in the apostasy. Read the posts of many on this forum and you can see they are vexed.

It’s plainly evident that you don’t know what the word “apostasy” means. Try using a dictionary.

Hardly worth a comment, but it amazes me how each year, certain Christian denominations take what is a very Germanic pre-Christian custom and equate it to that well known verse in Jeremiah which, of course has squat to do with Christmas trees (or even evergreen trees for that matter).

Apostasy is to abandon the faith.

Israel making the golden calf because Moses was nowhere to be seen is an example.

Israel crying about becoming prey in the good land and wishing to have died in Egypt rather than face the giants is another example.

Israel saying they loathe this manna (which depicts the bread of life we eat daily) is a third.


But of course the best example of what an apostate is: Laodicea

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.

So thank you for your pretense and arrogance, it is very illustrative of the burden.

did some research on Mr Courson here and it turns out he is better at telling other people what he thinks is sin or partaking in the world, then he is at following his own advice. His son, is worse

sometimes the people who come down so heavy on what they think is wrong with everyone else, are actually covering up and having covered up for them, their own transgressions

and yes, it does reflect on this video. as the pastor of a mega church, he has a huge responsibility and he cannot honestly put burdens on others while he knowingly covers up his own ...literal...affair. and like father like son. his son had to step down from ministry because of numerous women claiming he had affairs or inappropriate touching with them

excerpt from the Roys Report(restoring the church)

Gray said he urged Applegate leaders to follow I Timothy 5:19-20, which instructs church leaders to expose sinning elders. But instead, church leaders reportedly cited Genesis 9 as their guideline, noting that Noah’s sons covered up Noah’s nakedness.
The leaders also said they had “prayed against” the “spirit of sensuality” that had descended on the church, Gray said, and believed this would take care of the problem.
“The response was essentially to ignore all of it and to move on,” Gray said.

so what happened, is that his son sinned in the same manner mulitple of times because his father went along with covering up the adultery.

Jon’s son, Ben Courson, was appointed to replace his father at Applegate. But in August, Ben stepped down after allegations of sexual misconduct by numerous women were made public.

read it all here (it is worth reading)

you cannot cover up sin. it will come back to bite you.

and this relates to your op how exactly? anything for attention it would seem

Yada yada yada. Most of what you discuss in this thread is NOT apostasy, but simply unbelief. By confusing the two, you have made a concern out of thin air.

Unsaved people have always and will always make a mockery of true faith. Why should anyone be concerned with how they celebrate? Is it offensive to you that unsaved people act like unsaved people? Were you perfectly righteous before trusting in Jesus for salvation? I doubt it.

Instead of celebrating the truth we have in Jesus Christ, you are pointing the finger at other Christians and blaming them for celebrating as the unsaved do. You don't know anyone else's heart, yet here you are judging and condemning. All you are doing is showing the unsaved people why they should avoid Christianity.

You are apparently not familiar with how this thread got started. Another thread was made concerning the burning of a Christmas tree in NYC. It was evidence of how dangerous NYC is becoming as criminals are let out on the street and people with mental health issues are also let out on the street. This man should have never been on the street.

However, in the OP #1 the person starting the thread said this thread is not for those who do not celebrate Christ's birth, it is a about a Christmas tree.

Several people, myself included were stunned by that. We celebrate Christ's birth and have nothing to do with a Christmas tree. I live in NYC, the story was of interest to me, but I saw no association with Christ's birth.

However, rather than derailing the thread I opened this thread since the discussion is far more appropriate for the Bible discussion forum than the News forum.

The first story is what a real attack on the birth of Christ looks like and the second story just highlights how SNL looks exactly like Sodom and Gomorrah which is what the apostate world becomes once you have abandoned the faith. That second story ties in nicely with the example of the apostasy being Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude which I then shared.

Jude is not written to unsaved people. He makes that very clear. Israel in the Wilderness were those who had participated in the Passover and went through the baptism of the Red Sea, they drank the water from the Rock, they ate the bread in the wilderness, they followed the pillar of cloud and fire. They were saved.

It is stunning that Jude uses Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of the apostasy. That is what the church becomes if you abandon the faith. I go into great detail on this in post #309

Actually I am reading the Bible.

blah blah blah

as usual, trying to fend off truth by saying someone else is ignorant

this is what you do all the time

while not stunned, as I have seen how you exaggerate and try to get people on board with your conspiracy nonsense, you have really made an impression this time

oh boy no...you sure would not want to derail a thread

why don't you take it up with SNL ... perhaps you could witness to them

Nope, it was in the news forum. The story was a news story. I did not want people like you making it an anti- Christmas thread. You and one other person mentioned it, not several. I asked you not to derail the thread, but you still threatened to derail the thread.




You do you. But the story was about the news report, not about whether a tree is an idol, which it isn't and was proved wrong by Scripture.


You still gave your whole spiel... then threatened to derail the thread. This tie in you have with rapture is false doctrine btw.

Is Apostasy related to sexual perversion?

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

We have seen several examples of people attempting to suppress the truth on this thread. Gaslighting is one way, this is where you keep repeating a lie until others believe it. Look at what I have shared and look at what I am accused of sharing. They are two different things. This is gaslighting. Personal attacks is a second, accusing someone of being a false prophet, a liar, etc., etc. Then there was a blatant attempt to hijack the thread by posting about tornadoes as though that had anything to do with this. There are many threads with discussions I am not interested to participate in, I just ignore them. But these ones are unable to ignore this. Why?

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Everyone on earth can know God's eternal power and divine nature by looking at the creation. There are many examples of people coming to the Lord based on the testimony of creation. For example mathematicians have looked at the odds of complex proteins forming due to random mutation, compared that with how many seconds there are in 13 billion years (estimated age of the universe) and have come to the conclusion that we have a very real problem with the theory of evolution.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

This is what the apostasy is, they didn't glorify God as God, nor did they give thanks to Him. But their thinking became futile. Many translations translate that as vain imaginations. The main defense made for the Christmas tree is that it is simply a decoration without any meaning or significance, it is "vanity". Does anyone truly believe that the Christmas tree has no meaning or significance in the celebration of this holiday? Maybe they do. These people claim they are wiser and more mature than the believers who refuse to get involved in these extra biblical practices. They are those who are stronger in the faith, they eat mean, whereas those who don't have Christmas trees are weaker in the faith. They are referring to a verse where Paul says if the believer sees you eating at an idol temple. In Taiwan most restaurants have a little altar where they put an offering to their pagan God. I never worried about that, however, I didn't put one of those altars in my own house. By saying this they are admitting that the Christmas tree is a pagan altar that they have set up in their own house! How foolish! Then what do they decorate this tree with? Gold, tinsel, lights, and little ornaments of things that look like mortal human beings, birds, animals and reptiles. But of course, "they are the ones who are stronger in the faith".

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

This leads to sexual immorality. This is why the Bible equates fornication with idolatry. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie. Everyone who is older than six knows that all those Santa Claus stories are a lie. Everyone who is honest knows that putting gifts under the Christmas Tree is the same as putting gifts on an altar to an idol, you are worshipping and serving created things rather than the Creator who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

But it gets worse, the church becomes Sodom and Gomorrah. They think they are rich and wise and in need of nothing and don't realize they are naked and blind.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

And it gets worse. Yes, this is the apostasy, it begins with suppressing the truth and ends up down here. Not only do they do these things but they approve of those who practice them. They call good evil and evil good. The world is turned upside down and in response God will turn the world upside down and scrape them off like wiping a plate into the garbage.