Doctrine of Unconditional Election

rogerg · Jan 24, 2022

Nope. There is no sin in the world to come because there is only one law there: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

reneweddaybyday said:

Nope. If Christ is the propitiation for this world as you say, then everyone in it must be given eternal life because they have been covered by that propitiation. It couldn't apply to this current world and yet not cover everyone in this current world. That would be an illogical contradiction and God is not illogical. You can't have it both ways.

reneweddaybyday said:

Just because you say so doesn't make it true

Combanitorics · Jan 24, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Click to expand...

Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:

I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

Fascinating, what people claim to have a doctrine of. I remember studying that in philosophy, if you really "have a doctrine" and you prove it, it's always an ontological proof. Yeah, that one. There were two parts to that. You still have to use logic to prove that the doctrine is true, but you personally proving that you are a doctor in that method or that you have that particular spiritual "gift" I guess they're called, is always ontological.

rogerg · Jan 24, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

Whichever world you believe the propitiation applies to, we can say that all of those of that world must be covered by it, or the verse couldn't state "the whole world". Since we know that not everyone of this current world will be saved, we can know the propitiation cannot therefore apply to this world. We do know however that each and every person of the world to come, is of the saved, and so we can thereby know the propitiation applies only to that world and to those of it-- the elect.

reneweddaybyday · Jan 24, 2022

rogerg said:

right. Where we differ is:

You believe that those who are not saved were not "chosen" by God and God withholds faith from them so they cannot believe.

I believe that those who are not saved actively restrain, hinder, suppress the truth as shown in Romans 1

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

the words "who hold" in vs 18 are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to hinder, restrain, suppress. It's not that they can't believe ... it's not that God didn't reveal to them (vs 19 tells us God hath shewed it unto them) ...

I don't have to understand why someone would turn his or her back on God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein.

I just have to believe what God tells us here in Romans 1. God reveals Himself ... some folks restrain the truth and actively reject God.

there's also this little nugget of truth concerning God's heart ... Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

so sad that some folks reject God. He is so kind, so loving, so gracious

brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You still scoffing calling Truth calvinism. I have shown in this thread that unconditional election to salvation is Truth, you have decidedly rejected it, blow it off as calvinism.

brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

Again the elect only, jew and gentile. It also means the elect from all times of world history.

brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2022

Combanitorics said:

Only God gives one spiritual understanding of the truth. Unconditional election is taught in scripture whether you believe it to be true or not.

justpassinthrough · Jan 25, 2022

rogerg said:

Your false Christ-less “doctrine” has been exposed for what it is; an unbiblical man made doctrine of deceit. You attempt to slander those who provide scripture, all the while promoting your opinion based teaching.

Each of us will give an account before the Lord.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:9-11

that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

Words of Christ in red —

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

This is the criteria by which all men will be judged, to see who receives eternal life or the wrath of God.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

There is no separate criteria for the infirm.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jan 25, 2022

brightfame52 said:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Elect is not mentioned here. You presume much into God’s word.

Do you believe the phrase “the whole world” refers to the elect?

JPT

FreeGrace2 · Jan 25, 2022

brightfame52 said:

You've shown NO SUCH THING.

There are NO verses that show election is to salvation. That's just a presumption.

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

In all these verses, the purpose of election is clearly stated: service.

Now, your turn. Show me ANY verse that shows the purpose of election to be salvation.

rogerg · Jan 25, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

Really? So, just to be clear, you (and those like you) believe that for anyone who is unable to bring themselves to spiritual understanding and faith for reasons outside of their control (infirmity/inabilities/environment, etc.), they will suffer God's wrath for eternity, is that correct? If so, then that would be much, much harsher and unfair than of God Himself choosing who will and who not become saved regardless of any external or physical factors, don't you think? I do not think that your understanding of salvation on this basis is correct.
If I've misstated you position, let me know.

rogerg · Jan 25, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

See my reply (above) to JPT. Given your perception of salvation, then based upon it, those who are unable to bring themselves to spiritual understanding and faith for reasons outside of their control (age, infinity, inability, etc.) will suffer God's wrath for eternity. In effect, that is what you are saying and what you are left with should salvation be dependent in any facet upon the individual and not God.

brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

Read !

Again the elect only, jew and gentile. It also means the elect from all times of world history.

brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You've shown NO SUCH THING.

There are NO verses that show election is to salvation. That's just a presumption.

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

In all these verses, the purpose of election is clearly stated: service.

Now, your turn. Show me ANY verse that shows the purpose of election to be salvation.

You still scoffing calling Truth calvinism. I have shown in this thread that unconditional election to salvation is Truth, you have decidedly rejected it, blow it off as calvinism.

brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Unconditional Election, the calling and predestination of certain people to Salvation before the world began Eph 1:4-5, this is Grace only. How is it that election of grace could be conditional before the world began, when no conditions by man could have been performed ? Man had not yet been Created, Adam had not yet been formed from the ground. How was any person Chosen to Salvation before the world began, if salvation is contingent upon his freewill to choose or believe first after the world began ? Also see Rom 9:11 3

FreeGrace2 · Jan 25, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Go ahead and ignore the verses I just shared, and here again:

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Now it is your turn, as I said in my last post, and you just choke. You have NO verses that support your claim.

So, why DO you believe that election is to salvation since you can't find any verse that says so, and I have shared a number of verses that specifically note the purpose of election is service.

IN EVERY VERSE shared.

You may call my sharing of Scripture as scoffing. Just note that I'm not scoffing at Scripture. I'm scoffing at a theology that CANNOT SUPPORTS CLAIMS FROM SCRIPTURE.

Not even you have done so. Why should anyone believe or accept calvinism when its proponents can't even defend their own views????

FreeGrace2 · Jan 25, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Well, FINALLY you share a verse that you think teaches that election is to salvation. So, let's see what the verse says.

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Red words is election. So far, so good.

Blue words refer to the purpose of election in this verse. Is this salvation? No, it isn't. It's about lifestyle, not salvation. iow, God has chosen us "to be holy and blameless".

Do you know that Paul gives the definition of who he is referring to by the "us" in v.4? Most people don't know that.

Well, consider v.19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

There it is; clear as can be: "for US who believe". So, that's what Paul meant in v.4.

So, this is how v.4 really reads:

For God elected believers to be holy and blameless in His sight.

So, that verse supports MY belief about election being to service.

CorrectiveLens · Jan 25, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

In order to understand election, you have to understand salvation. WHen a person repents of His sins, puts his faith and trust in the Father's plan for the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ and the perfecting of each saint by filling them with His Holy Spirit , then you understand salvation. It is when the saint is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit that He becomes a new creature because he is full of love for God and man and has a source of communication since both the Father and Son reside in His heart. Rom 8: 3-4 For what the law could not do , in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
When you walk after the Spirit, all your actions and thoughts are motivated by the love for God and fellow man. When you walk after the Spirit, you are obeying the Spirit of the law and have a deep desire to do the Father's will and will bear fruit when you affect those around you by spreading His truth. What do you think service means?

reneweddaybyday · Jan 25, 2022

rogerg said:

actually ... it is your god who does what you claim ... i.e. "for reasons outside of their control" (God withholding faith ... or they are not "chosen") "will suffer God's wrath for eternity".

under your scenario, your god says "come unto me by faith" ... and then withholds from the "unchosen" that which is required to come unto him.

Additionally, your scenario conflicts with what is written in Romans 1:

Romans 1:

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

vs. 19 - God reveals Himself to them.

vs. 20 - God's eternal power and Godhead are clearly seen and because God reveals Himself to them and His eternal power and Godhead are cearly evident, they are without excuse. Please note, God does not say they are without faith ... He says they are without excuse because God has provided all that is needed for mankind to turn to Him.

vs. 21 - they knew God yet did not glorify Him as God, they were unthankful ... because they were unthankful and did not glorify God, they become vain (empty) in their imaginations (reasonings) and their heart becomes darkened.

Under your scenario, they have an excuse. Their excuse is that God withheld that which was needed in order for them to believe.

brightfame52 · Jan 26, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Go ahead and ignore the verses I just shared, and here again:

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Now it is your turn, as I said in my last post, and you just choke. You have NO verses that support your claim.

So, why DO you believe that election is to salvation since you can't find any verse that says so, and I have shared a number of verses that specifically note the purpose of election is service.

IN EVERY VERSE shared.

You may call my sharing of Scripture as scoffing. Just note that I'm not scoffing at Scripture. I'm scoffing at a theology that CANNOT SUPPORTS CLAIMS FROM SCRIPTURE.

Not even you have done so. Why should anyone believe or accept calvinism when its proponents can't even defend their own views????

I have shown in this thread that unconditional election to salvation is Truth, you have decidedly rejected it, blow it off as calvinism.

Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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