Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Grandpa

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FreeGrace2 said:
You cannot support with with any verse.
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Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is about Salvation. How ALL saved people are BEFORE ORDAINED for service.

FreeGrace2 said:
Then explain Judas, who WAS chosen by Jesus, to betray Him. John 6:70,71.
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Romans 9:16-18
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Everyone fulfills God Plans. Judas was NOT chosen for Good Works or Saved.




FreeGrace2 said:
This applies to believers, sure. To be "created unto good works" means to be created FOR good works. There are no guarantees here.

It is what believers are SUPPOSED TO DO, or OUGHT TO DO.

This verse supports Eph 1:4 about believers being chosen for service.
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There are guarantees.

If you are saved.

It is what believers are saved for.
 
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Grandpa

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FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

Just stop all this childish gibberish. I have given you the Bible. Maybe it's you who doesn't seem to understand.

If you don't think the verses I quote support my beliefs, then address the verse and explain why the verse doesn't. Just spewing your own brand of error does no good.


That's been MY point. Aren't you reading my posts?

v.4 says exactly that. God chose us (believers-v.19) to be holy and blameless.

I wish you were just kidding, but unfortunately, I know you are serious.

Because there are NO verses that show that election is to salvation. None, zero, nada, zip. Do any of these words have meaning for you?

And if it were so, then please explain why Jesus, Judas, angel and the entire nation of Israel were chosen.


Not Jesus, not Judas, not angels, and NOT the nation of Israel.


A really odd question. The point is that people are saved AND elected for service. Too many believers fail to understand that. They just think they are among the "lucky ones" who God chose to save, unconditionally. They have NO IDEA that their election is FOR service, not to avoid the LoF.


Not everyone is elected. Your question is too vague to really be able to respond to.

If you are referring to "everyone who is saved", then the answer is simply, yes, God has chosen believers...for service.

And Eph 2:10 PROVES that clearly.


What in the world are you talking about?

Do you not think it is IMPORTANT that EVERY believer understand that they were elected for service? I've already pointed out that too many believers simply think election means they are among the "lucky ones", or the "chosen frozen" in order to miss the LoF.

And they couldn't be farther from the truth!

These "frozen chosen" need a kick in their butts and told what they were chosen for. It wasn't to miss the LoF.

I've given you 3 examples of election that WAS NOT to salvation, and you just gloss over them as if they don't exist.

ALL election is for service. Jesus Christ, angels, the nation of Israel, Judas, church age believers. And the first 4 examples CANNOT be for salvation.
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All election is for SALVATION.

ALL Salvation is to service.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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Grandpa

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John146 said:
You're mistake is equating election with predestination. They are not the same. Neither one is unto salvation.

Election is for service.
Predestination is for the future redemption.
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If I thought you could understand Salvation I would explain it to you.

But, as your faith is, so is your understanding.
 
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Grandpa

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fredoheaven said:
Not a verse or passage to support election to salvation. This is rather a text for setting an order for service of the saved.
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No. That verse shows that ALL saved are given service.

There is NO ELECTION if ALL SAVED are used for service.

How do you elect EVERYONE?


Election is for Salvation. And it is easy to see those who are elect and those who are not. There has to be a "those who are not" in order for there to be election. That is how election works. Those who are elect and those who are not.
 
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Grandpa

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John146 said:
The good works hath God before ordained...
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What kind of mental gymnastics is that?

God before ordained good works and then he waits to see who will be the most qualified to fill that position?

Or do you think it more likely that God KNOWS who will fulfill that position before they are born. And they are MADE to fulfill that position...? :ROFL:

Never mind. You don't need to answer...:ROFL:
 
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John146

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Grandpa said:
What kind of mental gymnastics is that?

God before ordained good works and then he waits to see who will be the most qualified to fill that position?

Or do you think it more likely that God KNOWS who will fulfill that position before they are born. And they are MADE to fulfill that position...? :ROFL:

Never mind. You don't need to answer...:ROFL:
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The good works were prepared for those that are in Christ Jesus. Good works were foreordained in Christ, not man. That’s the context. You’re looking through Calvins goggles.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Grandpa said:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is about Salvation. How ALL saved people are BEFORE ORDAINED for service.
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v.10 is about service. v.8,9 is about salvation. v.10 is not about salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
Then explain Judas, who WAS chosen by Jesus, to betray Him. John 6:70,71.

Romans 9:16-18
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Everyone fulfills God Plans. Judas was NOT chosen for Good Works or Saved.
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I didn't say Judas was chosen for either good works or to be saved. I said he was chosen to be the betrayer. This fulfills the OT.

So, again, ALL of my examples show that they were chosen for service.

It is what believers are saved for.
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And the Bible makes it clear by statements that SHOW that election is to service.

And you still have NO examples of people being elected to salvation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Grandpa said:
All election is for SALVATION.
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Why can't you provide even 1 verse that says this then? Every one of my examples clearly show election is to service.

ALL Salvation is to service.
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Because God has "chosen believers...to be holy and blameless" per Eph 1:4.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Click to expand...
Again, we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. (iow, salvation is conditional on FAITH). No works involved. v.10 shows that believers are created to do good works.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Grandpa said:
There is NO ELECTION if ALL SAVED are used for service.
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Don't tell me what the Bible says. I already know. Unlike yourself.

How do you elect EVERYONE?
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It is unconditional. That's HOW. God has chosen every believer for service. But I'll bet very few people, including calvinists even know that.

The vast majority of calvinists will stubbornly claim election is to salvation, just like all you guys are doing, but when shown clear verses, have to change your tune to "all salvation is to service", in order to avoid having to admit that election IS to service.

Election is for Salvation.
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Yep. There you go again. And yet, you have zero verses that say this. Why don't you just give up and accept what Scripture says?

And it is easy to see those who are elect and those who are not. There has to be a "those who are not" in order for there to be election. That is how election works. Those who are elect and those who are not.
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This is just so confused.

All believers are elected for service. Some unbelievers are elected for service. That is what we find in Scripture.
 
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rogerg

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fredoheaven said:
There are those who receive him and others reject him, There are those who believe on Him and those not. Your text in 1 Cor. 2:14 does not negate that both the saved and unsaved cannot hear the gospel. Both hear yet the one believes
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You're trying to add words and meaning to the verses that they themselves just don't permit. Try reading and understanding them based upon the words of the verses alone instead of forcing them into your understanding.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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rogerg said:
You're trying to add words and meaning to the verses that they themselves just don't permit. Try reading and understanding them based upon the words of the verses alone instead of forcing them into your understanding.
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iow @fredoheaven ... don't read the verse within the context in which it sits. No, we must pluck the verse out of its context so Scripture can be manipulated to fit man's dogma ...

Clearly in 1 Corinthians 2 Paul speaks of believers who are carnal and who had placed their faith in man's wisdom:

1 Corinthians 2:

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


Because the believers in Corinth followed men (1 Cor 1:11-13; 1 Cor 3:1-4), they were carnal and with some of them Paul was unable to go beyond Jesus Christ and Him crucified (which is basically the Gospel) ... hopefully Paul was also able to teach the resurrection and ascension!!!


However, there were some in the church at Corinth who were more mature and here is what Paul has to say about them:

1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


the word "perfect" in vs 6 is translated from the Greek word téleios which means mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey) - HELPS Word-studies.

So we see here that Paul was able to speak of deeper spiritual matters with the believers who were more mature in the Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul then goes on to speak of the deeper spiritual matters ...

1 Corinthians 2:

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


vs 10 - God reveals these deeper truths concerning the hidden wisdom (vs 7), as well as other things which God reveals.


Then God tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What are the "things" God is talking about which are spiritually discerned? Is it the Gospel? ... or is it the deeper, spiritual things of God which Paul and the more mature believers in the church were able to discuss apart from the carnal folks?


1 Cor 2:14 rests in a context which indicates the reference is to the deeper things ... the hidden wisdom of God ... the mystery ... the things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor that which has entered into the heart of man ... things which God reveals in His gracious lovingkindness to those who love Him. :cool:

However, I know that there are some who insist that 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the basics of the gospel ... they have to because they do not believe that God allows mankind to reject Him (suppress the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Romans 1:18).



 
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justpassinthrough

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rogerg said:
Because it is not of the work or action of the person being saved. It is through Christ and not of themselves. Christ is the Saviour.
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Yes Christ is the Savior.

He has made salvation available to all the world; to those who believe.


Please answer the question from the scripture.



How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?



How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


  • How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
  • And how shall they hear without a preacher?
 
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peldom10

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justpassinthrough said:
Yes Christ is the Savior.

He has made salvation available to all the world; to those who believe.


Please answer the question from the scripture.



How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?



How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


  • How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
  • And how shall they hear without a preacher?
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Why do you think the Bible says.....the end will not come until all the world has been made aware of God's word.

Also....the Bible says ....some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only.
Shouldn't we believe that God is capable and will handle such question you ask?
 
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rogerg

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justpassinthrough said:
Please answer the question from the scripture.



How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?



How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


  • How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
  • And how shall they hear without a preacher?
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Actually, you've asked me this question several times in the past, and I believe that I answered you each time.
Anyway, as you yourself said, Christ is the Saviour. As Saviour, salvation is entirely dependent upon Him and His works, and not upon ours: it is ALL God's work. The salvation of the Elect was made sure by Christ's faithfulness to the Father. Now, within that context, if you're asking about gaining faith in Christ, the answer is that it is given as a fruit of the Spirit (which comes when born-again). So, faith in Christ (as well as all aspects of salvation) is a gift of God. For all of the saved, the Father has committed that, at some point after becoming born-again and before death, they will hear the Gospel of Christ and their faith will increase. Growth of faith continues throughout their lifetime.
In this manner is salvation sure to all the seed, and not only to those who have the capability of hearing and understanding the Gospel ( were it to work that way, which it doesn't)
 
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rogerg

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reneweddaybyday said:
Clearly in 1 Corinthians 2 Paul speaks of believers who are carnal and who had placed their faith in man's wisdom:

1 Corinthians 2:

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
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I completely disagree with your assessment. it speaks of the Elect. You should read and factor-in the salutation of chapter 1 to understand who actually is in view:

[1Co 1:2, 4-6 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: ...
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

Even chapter 2 continues with this:

[1Co 2:10-14 KJV]
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The foundation of Paul's discussion was established in/by Chapter 1. Unless you are able to perceive this, it won't do much good to discuss further
 
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Grandpa

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John146 said:
The good works were prepared for those that are in Christ Jesus. Good works were foreordained in Christ, not man. That’s the context. You’re looking through Calvins goggles.
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Yes. Now keep going.

God didn't know who was going to be in Christ so He couldn't foreordain that? He had to wait and see who would surprise Him with their Wisdom and Strength???:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
 
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Grandpa

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FreeGrace2 said:
v.10 is about service. v.8,9 is about salvation. v.10 is not about salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
Then explain Judas, who WAS chosen by Jesus, to betray Him. John 6:70,71.


I didn't say Judas was chosen for either good works or to be saved. I said he was chosen to be the betrayer. This fulfills the OT.

So, again, ALL of my examples show that they were chosen for service.


And the Bible makes it clear by statements that SHOW that election is to service.

And you still have NO examples of people being elected to salvation.
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Not sure if you can't read or if you just can't understand.

I can post all the scripture that I've already posted several times if you want to say that I haven't done it again...:ROFL:
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
v.10 is about service. v.8,9 is about salvation. v.10 is not about salvation.

Then explain Judas, who WAS chosen by Jesus, to betray Him. John 6:70,71.

I didn't say Judas was chosen for either good works or to be saved. I said he was chosen to be the betrayer. This fulfills the OT.

So, again, ALL of my examples show that they were chosen for service.

And the Bible makes it clear by statements that SHOW that election is to service.

And you still have NO examples of people being elected to salvation.
Grandpa said:
Not sure if you can't read or if you just can't understand.
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This is a very odd statement from one who has NO verses showing election is to salvation, and can't explain how Judas, an unbeliever, was chosen for service.

I can post all the scripture that I've already posted several times if you want to say that I haven't done it again...:ROFL:
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Here was your chance to just DO IT, but all you can do is "claim" that you did it.

You haven't yet done it. No verses showing election is to salvation. Because there aren't any.
 
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John146

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Grandpa said:
Yes. Now keep going.

God didn't know who was going to be in Christ so He couldn't foreordain that? He had to wait and see who would surprise Him with their Wisdom and Strength???:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
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God’s foreknowledge is not God choosing. Surprise him with their wisdom and strength? Why do Calvinists go to such an extreme…one end to another?
 
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reneweddaybyday

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rogerg said:
it speaks of the Elect.
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The word "elect" is translated from the Greek word eklektos. Please show me the verse in 1 Corinthians 1 where the Greek word eklektos appears. Thank you.




You should read and factor-in the salutation of chapter 1 to understand who actually is in view:

[1Co 1:2, 4-6 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: ...
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
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Read a few verses further, rogerg:


1 Corinthians 1:

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


Clearly, Paul spoke of believers who were carnal because they did not follow the Lord Jesus Christ. They followed other men ... Paul, Apollos, Cephas ...

The church at Corinth was comprised of believers who were carnal ... believers who were babes in Christ (Paul calls them "carnal" in 1 Cor 3:1) ... believers who were more mature. We see the same thing today in our churches.




rogerg said:
Even chapter 2 continues with this:

[1Co 2:10-14 KJV]
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Click to expand...
Read the opening verses of chapter 2:

1 Corinthians 2:

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


These are the same believers Paul speaks of in chapter 1 who followed men. Paul could speak to them concerning Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) ... which is the basics of the Gospel.

However, Paul could not speak to these carnal believers concerning the deep things of God. Paul could only speak of the deeper spiritual matters with the more mature believers in the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

Look up the word "perfect" ... in the Greek it refers to those who are more mature and could be taught concerning the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) ... the things which God hath prepared for them that love him (1 Cor 2:9).




rogerg said:
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The foundation of Paul's discussion was established in/by Chapter 1.
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So now you're saying that vs 14 refers to the "Elect"?



 
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