F I R M A M E N T U M

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DanielLL

DanielLL

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#1
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#1
-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon are both "great lights" and they move relative to the earth, not the other way around. And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
 
DanielLL

DanielLL

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#2
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#2
firmāmentum n (genitive firmāmentī); second declension

  1. A strengthening, support, prop, stay.
  2. The firmament; the sky fixed above the earth. quotations ▲
    • Vulgate: Genesis 1,7-8Et fecit Deus firmamentum divisitque aquas, quae erant sub firmamento, ab his, quae erant super firmamentum. [8] Vocavitque Deus firmamentum Caelum.And God made the firmament and divided the waters, that were under the firmament, from those, that were above the firmament. [8] And God called the firmament the sky.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#3
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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#3
Welcome to CC…

You are trying to make a case based on a 400-year-old translation, using a modern understanding of the words. That’s subject to error. It is better to go to the original language to determine what the words meant in their original context.

I would also recommend using a modern translation. You quote Proverbs 3:5, but you need to abide by it as well. ;)
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#4
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#4
DanielLL said:
-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon are both "great lights" and they move relative to the earth, not the other way around. And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Click to expand...
If the Earth was literally a circle it would need to be a perfect circle and two dimensional; the earth is neither of those. Therefore the writer was not being literal. What the writer seems to mean is that apparently, from the perspective of the human eye, the earth appears to be circular in shape when viewed from a fixed point on the surface because people view things from a fixed point on their head.

If you could view things from every possible perspective simultaneously the earth wouldn't look like a circle. Therefore the writer is speaking in human terms. So the writer is trying to explain what a person should be able to see, not a God's-eye view of the Earth from outer space.
 
DanielLL

DanielLL

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#6
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#6
Runningman said:
literally a circle it would need to be a perfect circle and two dimensional
Click to expand...
He drew a "perfect literal two dimensional circle":

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Runningman said:
Therefore the writer was not being literal.
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Why not? The shape is a circle, but there is depth and height too, below and above the circle. The face of the deep is a flat plane, but the deep itself has depth below, and height above the deep.
Runningman said:
What the writer seems to mean
Click to expand...
Interpretations of your own understanding. I will lean on the Word instead.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#7
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#7
DanielLL said:
He drew a "perfect literal two dimensional circle":

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,


Why not? The shape is a circle, but there is depth and height too, below and above the circle. The face of the deep is a flat plane, but the deep itself has depth below, and height above the deep.


Interpretations of your own understanding. I will lean on the Word instead.
Click to expand...
Let's skip the whole "I believe this and if you have a different interpretation you're wrong" approach.

Do you want to actually refute what I wrote?
 
DanielLL

DanielLL

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#8
Mar 12, 2022
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#8
Runningman said:
Do you want to actually refute what I wrote?
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I did tell you: just because the shape is a two dimentional circle, doesnt exclude the depth and height below and above the circle.

Your interpretation refutes itself because it is not written, but if you want me to respond: The Word is Truth, it is not simply what it "appears when viwed from a fixed point". The Word is Truth. Absolute Truth.
 
Aaron56

Aaron56

Well-known member
#9
Jul 12, 2021
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#9
Reported this. It belongs in the conspiracy forum.
 
DanielLL

DanielLL

Member
#10
Mar 12, 2022
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#10
Aaron56 said:
It belongs in the conspiracy forum.
Click to expand...
Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#11
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#11
DanielLL said:
He drew a "perfect literal two dimensional circle":

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,


Why not? The shape is a circle, but there is depth and height too, below and above the circle. The face of the deep is a flat plane, but the deep itself has depth below, and height above the deep.


Interpretations of your own understanding. I will lean on the Word instead.
Click to expand...
Okay. Let's be literal. The circle was on the surface (the face) and not a milimeter below the surface. So the circle was still only two dimensional.
 
DanielLL

DanielLL

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#12
Mar 12, 2022
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#12
Runningman said:
So the circle was still only two dimensional.
Click to expand...
Yes the two dimensional circle is the shape:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,

The circle, is where the firmament is "estabilished", where it was placed. That is why He "strengthened the fountains of the deep", so they could support the circle where earth ends and firmament beggins.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#13
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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#13
DanielLL said:
So your argument is Im wrong because you say so, and you present me with nothing at all but your own understanding. You have to do better than that.
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From that I would conclude that you don't read too well, and you don't relate too well either. Instead of getting your knickers in a twist, read more carefully.

You are making an argument based on the 400-year-old translation of a Latin translation of a Hebrew word. "Firmament" is not a word used in modern English except in the context of the KJV. Find a modern translation of the word, or go back to the Hebrew word.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#14
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
113
#14
DanielLL said:
Yes the two dimensional circle is the shape:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,

The circle, is where the firmament is "estabilished", where it was placed. That is why He "strengthened the fountains of the deep", so they could support the circle where earth ends and firmament beggins.
Click to expand...
Why would support be needed? Would the earth sink if not so supported? Into what would it sink?
 
DanielLL

DanielLL

Member
#15
Mar 12, 2022
357
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#15
Dino246 said:
you don't read too well
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So the Latin Vulgate is wrong because you say so, and the KJV is wrong because it has 400 years. Is this the best you can do? Try to discredit the Word of God as a wrong translation?

Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#16
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
113
#16
DanielLL said:
So the Latin Vulgate is wrong because you say so, and the KJV is wrong because it has 400 years. Is this the best you can do? Try to discredit the Word of God as a wrong translation?

Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Click to expand...
Since you want to be a jackdonkey, I'll treat you as one. I withdraw my welcome.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#17
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#17
Not even the Hebrew manuscripts are translated for the Hebrew scholars attending this task have never been certain as to the translation of many words. Ergo, they translated what they could .
 
DanielLL

DanielLL

Member
#18
Mar 12, 2022
357
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#18
JaumeJ said:
Hebrew manuscripts
Click to expand...
Dino246 said:
I withdraw my welcome.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you should withdraw yourself too, speaking against the Word is not something you wan't to do. If I can' use the Latin Vulgate nor the KJV because it's old, then the entire Word is broken, because all the Greek Word and the Textus Receptus is even older. And you would have to reject those translations too.
 
K

kleronomos

Banned
#20
Dec 15, 2021
1,494
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63
#20
DanielLL said:
-The firmament is so "firm" it can support the waters above the firmament:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

-The sun and moon move relative to the earth, but the earth does not move:

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

-The earth is a circle on the face of the deep:

Proverbs 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

So, "outer space" is not void, it is water. The sun and moon are both "great lights" and they move relative to the earth, not the other way around. And the earth is a circle on the "face" of the deep, which makes it flat in terms of geometry. Let the Word speak:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Click to expand...
Have you ever seen a picture of the earth from space with ALL the continents seen at one time? Why do we need multiple satellites to talk to each other if they all see the same thing? If the waters were divided how much of 'space' would all the earths water take up?
 
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