Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Apr 22, 2021
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"would be the general idea that there's no future for Israel"

Okay, so just to understand, are you saying there is one salvation for the nation of Israel and another for everyone else, or do I misunderstand you?

If you believe there are two, then please define nation of Israel, and explain what you believe these verses mean?

[Rom 9:25 KJV]
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[2Co 6:16 KJV]
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
No. Jesus is the only way, and always has been the only way. Old and new covenant. Acts 4:12. John 14:6.
Romans 11:25-32 is what I'm referring to concerning there being a future for Israel. It's laid out far too clearly for me to ignore. My understanding of it would be that in the end, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in, Israel will recognize that Jesus was (is) the promised Messiah the whole time and believe unto salvation.
 

rogerg

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No. Jesus is the only way, and always has been the only way. Old and new covenant. Acts 4:12. John 14:6.
Romans 11:25-32 is what I'm referring to concerning there being a future for Israel. It's laid out far too clearly for me to ignore. My understanding of it would be that in the end, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in, Israel will recognize that Jesus was (is) the promised Messiah the whole time and believe unto salvation.
Okay thanks for your reply but what you've posted above (unless I've misunderstood you), sounds like a different salvation; that is, according to the above, they will become saved BECAUSE they are of Israel. So, I would have ask, what according to your reply, do you consider the Israel of it to be?
 
Apr 22, 2021
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Because of context, and his specific mention of the fullness of the gentiles coming in, I take it to mean ethnic Israel. Going back to Romans 11, v28-As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,. Because of His love for the patriarchs, He will save them., for His gifts and calling are irrevocable.

How I understand it is this. God promised a Savior in Genesis 3:15. That promise was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. The majority of the Jews rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah. This was done that gentiles could be included in salvation. When the fullness of the gentiles has come in, the Jews will, through the Holy Spirit (as there is no other way), come to recognize that Jesus is indeed the Messiah and the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15. They will place their faith in Him and be saved. This is done, because there were promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning (I believe) ethnic Israel. I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's hard for me to read Romans 11 and say in clear conscience that there's no future for Israel.
 

rogerg

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Jews will, through the Holy Spirit (as there is no other way), come to recognize that Jesus is indeed the Messiah and the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15. They will place their faith in Him and be saved. This is done, because there were promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerning (I believe) ethnic Israel. I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's hard for me to read Romans 11 and say in clear conscience that there's no future for Israel.
Yeah, I know what you mean, I have the same problem sometimes trying to understand. That's why it I like to dialogue with others to hear their perceptions. So you believe that only certain jews are saved even though all were/are the offspring of Abraham? Doesn't
that suggest that the criterial is something other than of being of Israel, because not all will be saved? Now, I don't necessarily disagree that Jews remain to be saved... but I think those who are, are, only because that God had chosen them individually to be of the elect, just as everyone else is, and not because of any earthly linage.

[Col 3:11 KJV] 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
 
Apr 22, 2021
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The way I read it, and I realize your (and my) struggle with this, is that because of His love for the patriarchs, He will, in the end, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in, convert all (ethnic) Israel to Christ.
Where I think I struggle with it is that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel, but if you just continue to have a remnant being saved, most of Romans 11:25-32 doesn't make much sense. There's a remnant as it is, nothing would be any different, and Romans 11:25-32 needn't be written.
Some, I think, have taken this verse to mean that all Jews are saved, but then what Paul wrote in Romans 9:1-5 doesn't make much(any) sense, and Acts 4:12 would have an exception to it, etc. Upon thinking of it further, Paul states that they have experienced a hardening in part which would line up with the idea that there is a current remnant. Romans 11: 25-32 indicates that something will change. If, currently, there is a remnant, then I think Romans 11:25-32 speaks of all ethnic Israel coming to recognize that Jesus is (always was) the promised Messiah, and turning to God in Christ as a whole ethnic nation, and being saved through faith in Christ. All Israel is Israel (in the very end) in this view. I effectively view this as a true restoring of the kingdom of Israel, because of His love for the patriarchs.
 
Apr 22, 2021
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Sorry, I immediately replied without reading /making sure I answered your question. I also appreciate dialogue. The criteria absolutely is something other than being of Israel. I would think it's God's sovereignty, along the lines of "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy" Even in the old covenant, there were Jewish converts, which I take to mean that people were being brought to faith in God from the gentile world, while others, born into Judaism, were not saved.
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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All who are saved by the Lamb of God are brought together with the Israel of God, and we await New Jerusalem.
 

rogerg

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All who are saved by the Lamb of God are brought together with the Israel of God, and we await New Jerusalem.
Appreciate for your input, JaumeJ. I think those, and only those, who are "in Christ Jesus" as of the Israel of God. Do you see the Israel of God differently? Here are a few verses that might help to illustrate my point.

[Gal 6:14-16 KJV]
6:14 KJV] 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[2Co 3:14 KJV]
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

Once being divorced by God, according to His law, the nation of Israel could never again become His wife.

[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

[Deu 24:4 KJV]
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
 

rogerg

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I effectively view this as a true restoring of the kingdom of Israel, because of His love for the patriarchs.
Thanks UnnamedConcerned. It's kind of late now so I'll ponder your replies and try to get back to you tomorrow (Monday). Roger
 

JaumeJ

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Appreciate for your input, JaumeJ. I think those, and only those, who are "in Christ Jesus" as of the Israel of God. Do you see the Israel of God differently? Here are a few verses that might help to illustrate my point.

[Gal 6:14-16 KJV]
6:14 KJV] 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[2Co 3:14 KJV]
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

Once being divorced by God, according to His law, the nation of Israel could never again become His wife.

[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

[Deu 24:4 KJV]
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.[/QUATE]
All who believe Jesus Yeshua are One in Jesus, and He is one with the Father. This , though true, is yet unexplained in its fulness, however all will be revealed come the Kingdom All who truly believe Jesus Yeshua may be said to be true Jews, however this is not understood by those who dislike our history and forefathers as our forerunners. And so it goes.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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He will, in the end, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in, convert all (ethnic) Israel to Christ.
I think the key to identifying who those are to be regrafted is found in these verses:
[Rom 11:20 KJV] 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[Rom 11:23 KJV] 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

As I read the above verses, it sems to me the "they" are those who come to not abide in an unbelief of Jesus. So, if through Christ are they regrafted, then being of earthly (ethnic) Israel is not a factor for their salvation. We are therefore returned to the proposition that salvation can only come through Christ, not Israel. Should we choose to say that they came to a belief in Christ because they are of ethnic Israel, then all those who fit into that criterion (ethnic Israel, etc.) must also be saved, most notably the chief priests and high priest of Israel who deemed Jesus guilty of blasphemy, and who we know were never saved. Therefore, it's hard for me to see that criterion (ethnic Israel) as that which is the cause of anyone's salvation

Where I think I struggle with it is that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel, but if you just continue to have a remnant being saved, most of Romans 11:25-32 doesn't make much sense. There's a remnant as it is, nothing would be any different, and Romans 11:25-32 needn't be written.
[Rom 11:23-26 KJV]
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I think Romans 11:25 continues the discussion of the Israel of God -- those whose names are in the Book of Life, Jew and gentile alike - but not because they belong to ethnic Israel. I think verse 23 set the stage for this interpretation.

Notice that in 11:24, we see the Jews will be regrafted into the same good olive tree as the saved gentiles are grafted into.
Also, in 11:23 we can see that certain branches (the Jews) were broken off solely for unbelief in Jesus. So, again, everything pertaining to salvation revolves around Christ alone and not Israel.

Some, I think, have taken this verse to mean that all Jews are saved, but then what Paul wrote in Romans 9:1-5 doesn't make much(any) sense, and Acts 4:12 would have an exception to it, etc. Upon thinking of it further, Paul states that they have experienced a hardening in part which would line up with the idea that there is a current remnant. Romans 11: 25-32 indicates that something will change. If, currently, there is a remnant, then I think Romans 11:25-32 speaks of all ethnic Israel coming to recognize that Jesus is (always was) the promised Messiah, and turning to God in Christ as a whole ethnic nation, and being saved through faith in Christ. All Israel is Israel (in the very end) in this view. I effectively view this as a true restoring of the kingdom of Israel, because of His love for the patriarchs.
Whoever/whatever earthly/ethnic Israel is deemed to be, we can see that, according to Paul, only certain of them, and not all will be saved. Logically speaking then, unless all within that category (ethnic Israel) are saved solely because they are of that category, then ethnic Israel cannot be a factor for salvation.

[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Notice according to Paul (who was as ethnic a Jew as anyone could be), that only some of his same Jewish kindred (his flesh) might become saved.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Sorry, I immediately replied without reading /making sure I answered your question. I also appreciate dialogue. The criteria absolutely is something other than being of Israel. I would think it's God's sovereignty, along the lines of "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy" Even in the old covenant, there were Jewish converts, which I take to mean that people were being brought to faith in God from the gentile world, while others, born into Judaism, were not saved.
Yes, I would agree. So then based upon what you've mentioned above, unless I've misunderstood it, I think we are in agreement; that is, it is Christ who saves as His divine prerogative, whom He chooses regardless of race, color, creed, linage or of any other factor besides that He has chosen to save them. If I've misunderstood your point, please let me know.
 
Apr 22, 2021
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I think the key to identifying who those are to be regrafted is found in these verses:
[Rom 11:20 KJV] 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[Rom 11:23 KJV] 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

As I read the above verses, it sems to me the "they" are those who come to not abide in an unbelief of Jesus. So, if through Christ are they regrafted, then being of earthly (ethnic) Israel is not a factor for their salvation. We are therefore returned to the proposition that salvation can only come through Christ, not Israel. Should we choose to say that they came to a belief in Christ because they are of ethnic Israel, then all those who fit into that criterion (ethnic Israel, etc.) must also be saved, most notably the chief priests and high priest of Israel who deemed Jesus guilty of blasphemy, and who we know were never saved. Therefore, it's hard for me to see that criterion (ethnic Israel) as that which is the cause of anyone's salvation



[Rom 11:23-26 KJV]
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I think Romans 11:25 continues the discussion of the Israel of God -- those whose names are in the Book of Life, Jew and gentile alike - but not because they belong to ethnic Israel. I think verse 23 set the stage for this interpretation.

Notice that in 11:24, we see the Jews will be regrafted into the same good olive tree as the saved gentiles are grafted into.
Also, in 11:23 we can see that certain branches (the Jews) were broken off solely for unbelief in Jesus. So, again, everything pertaining to salvation revolves around Christ alone and not Israel.



Whoever/whatever earthly/ethnic Israel is deemed to be, we can see that, according to Paul, only certain of them, and not all will be saved. Logically speaking then, unless all within that category (ethnic Israel) are saved solely because they are of that category, then ethnic Israel cannot be a factor for salvation.

[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Notice according to Paul (who was as ethnic a Jew as anyone could be), that only some of his same Jewish kindred (his flesh) might become saved.
I think we're a ways apart on this. I don't think that typically being of ethnic Israel is any factor in salvation. There are ethnic Israelis saved because they were foreknew, no different than a gentile being saved. (Think Paul or Luke for example).

I think that Romans 11:25-32 talks of something else. Namely, concerning the end times. I read through SOME of this briefly.( https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/romans-11/ ). In this, he points out that Paul speaks about a mystery, and it's no mystery that all spirtual Israel will be saved, so the mystery must be something else.

Paul states that as far as election is concerned, they are loved (in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated) He is talking about a saving love.
At some point, their hardening in part will end because of His love for the patriarchs. He also differentiates between gentiles and Israel, something that need not happen if he was talking about spiritual Israel.

It's hard for me to put this together all coherently. I think that at some point there will no longer be ONLY a remnant saved. All ethnic Israel will be saved through the ordinary means. (Predestined, called, justified by faith, etc.), but that will occur because of who they are (because He loved the patriarchs). I don't think this is currently taking place. More an end times thing.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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unanamedconcerned

He will, in the end, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in, convert all (ethnic) Israel to Christ.
Then thats Salvation given based upon ethnicity. Thats respect of persons !
 
Jan 31, 2021
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This is really the problem with non reformed theology. One person seems to be completely hung up on works, the next on grace. The next can't accept the clear teachings of unconditional election.
Would you please quote any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. By that, I mean the verse actually uses "saved" "salvation" in relation to election. Thanks.

Every verse I've found where election includes the purpose, it is always to service.
 
Apr 22, 2021
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Would you please quote any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. By that, I mean the verse actually uses "saved" "salvation" in relation to election. Thanks.

Every verse I've found where election includes the purpose, it is always to service.
When you learn the general doctrine, and then see it confirmed in verses like Acts 13:48, I would tend to say that yes, election is concerning salvation.
I think it's pretty tough to say that Esau was saved (salvation) when it says God hated him.
One place it is sort of mentioned together is in 2 Peter 1:10. It ties calling and election together to some extent, and calling is absolutely concerning salvation. I'd say that it's fair to say that those who are called are elect in that context.
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
Thank you for a clear post .
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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Would you please quote any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. By that, I mean the verse actually uses "saved" "salvation" in relation to election. Thanks.

Every verse I've found where election includes the purpose, it is always to service.
2tim1;9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2tim2:
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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well, one issue is man has taken the word "Elect" and made it "selection".
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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Seem to me there is condition to receive the grace the condition is who so ever believe. Who solver believe will be ekect
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,