Dispensationalism...
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So you believe that Paul forfeited his right to the promise by becoming Christian? Do you also believe that Christ forfeited his right to the promise by rejecting the Pharisees?
Oh, I see, so you have decided to step away from your Lev 26 argument and state that the promise can be inherited without repentance? Or do you need more time to get your story straight?
Are you claiming that every occupant of the land was there by virtue of the promises? Or do you concede that some people may be there outside of the effect of the promise?
Whoops, there you go changing your story again within the same post.
Is repentance required? The question is rhetorical at this point because you are willing to say either without an ounce of accountability in the things you say.
As of Rom 9:13 Paul is speaking to Gentiles in the audience, yes.
There is a breakdown of unsaved Israel as well. You'll notice in Romans 11:23 there is a conditional salvation for Jews when Paul states "... if they do not continue in unbelief."
There are Jews that are in a bad state and eventually receive God's mercy, and other Jews that are in a bad state and will not receive salvation. IF. It's Conditional. Get it?
"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." - Gal 3:6-7 KJV
In the post crucifixion world, those of faith are Christian not antiChrist Jews.
Saul wasn't of the faith until he became Paul. I'm not saying we should give up on the Saul's of the world, but we shouldn't expect that everyone would be a Saul.
It's not as though God's promises are in vain: not all of Israel are Israel. Not all that call themselves Jews are Jews. <- That's Biblical, if you reject that your beliefs aren't.
I agree with this. But Biblically we need to understand that there is no guarantee for any particular percentage of people there to attain salvation.
I hope the best for every nation, and it was promised in Revelation that there will be those saved from every nation. There are good people everywhere.
I'm not claiming that all 0AD Gentiles became Israel. But it should be observed that just like Timothy had mixed ancestry, it is easily the fact that many people have mixed ancestry, especially considering historic diaspora. Yes, we can look at gene clustering, but the moment that door opened for free intermarriage between all nations that joined Christianity, it's hard to tell the dividing line between different groups, especially if we consider the fact that even a drop of Judean blood makes you a descendant of Abraham.
There are literally people that don't realize the true scope of their ancestry. And with promiscuity over the ages, even a well written family tree might not be 100% accurate. It's likely part of the reason that Talmudic Jews count ancestry matrilineally, to remove doubt despite the fact that counting through "seed" was patrilineal. If we consider the fact that since 2000 years ago, at 4 generations per century, everyone has 2^80 ancestors (with some level of inbreeding) which equals 1.2 heptillion (1.2 E24) ancestors relative to the beginnings of Christianity. And if even one of those ancestors was a Jew turned Christian like Timothy's mother, there may not be a written history of it, but that person would be related to Abraham through Judah's bloodline. That would show up as a blip of nothing statistically on a gene analysis, but it wouldn't change the fact that the person truly has that bloodline.
You can't just say that the Church isn't Israel firstly because 1) denying the ancestry of random people is hateful and obtuse. 2) At the time of New Jerusalem, there is no nation of Israel. 3) If a man and wife become one, and Christ is Israel, what does that make the Church and the Bridegroom, Christ?
On one hand, to my question "Do you agree that the promises have continuity through Christians?" you stated "NO!" And yet here you are in this quote inferring that Jews that became Christians still have the promises. Those are contradictory premises. Either there is continuity or there isn't. It can't be both.
Consider these points:
1) Did Timothy qualify for the promises?
2) Did hypothetical Christian descendants of Timothy qualify for the promises?
I'm beating a dead horse here. You know you screwed up. I doubt you will acknowledge that. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you literally made two completely opposite points in the same post. Unless you are willing to reevaluate your comments and demonstrate some accountability, the only tactic left at your disposal is attacking character, and if that's the case, I have nothing more to say to you, as you will have been just another deceitful doubleminded Dispensationalist.
Oh, I see, so you have decided to step away from your Lev 26 argument and state that the promise can be inherited without repentance? Or do you need more time to get your story straight?
Are you claiming that every occupant of the land was there by virtue of the promises? Or do you concede that some people may be there outside of the effect of the promise?
Whoops, there you go changing your story again within the same post.
Is repentance required? The question is rhetorical at this point because you are willing to say either without an ounce of accountability in the things you say.
As of Rom 9:13 Paul is speaking to Gentiles in the audience, yes.
There is a breakdown of unsaved Israel as well. You'll notice in Romans 11:23 there is a conditional salvation for Jews when Paul states "... if they do not continue in unbelief."
There are Jews that are in a bad state and eventually receive God's mercy, and other Jews that are in a bad state and will not receive salvation. IF. It's Conditional. Get it?
"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." - Gal 3:6-7 KJV
In the post crucifixion world, those of faith are Christian not antiChrist Jews.
Saul wasn't of the faith until he became Paul. I'm not saying we should give up on the Saul's of the world, but we shouldn't expect that everyone would be a Saul.
It's not as though God's promises are in vain: not all of Israel are Israel. Not all that call themselves Jews are Jews. <- That's Biblical, if you reject that your beliefs aren't.
I agree with this. But Biblically we need to understand that there is no guarantee for any particular percentage of people there to attain salvation.
I hope the best for every nation, and it was promised in Revelation that there will be those saved from every nation. There are good people everywhere.
I'm not claiming that all 0AD Gentiles became Israel. But it should be observed that just like Timothy had mixed ancestry, it is easily the fact that many people have mixed ancestry, especially considering historic diaspora. Yes, we can look at gene clustering, but the moment that door opened for free intermarriage between all nations that joined Christianity, it's hard to tell the dividing line between different groups, especially if we consider the fact that even a drop of Judean blood makes you a descendant of Abraham.
There are literally people that don't realize the true scope of their ancestry. And with promiscuity over the ages, even a well written family tree might not be 100% accurate. It's likely part of the reason that Talmudic Jews count ancestry matrilineally, to remove doubt despite the fact that counting through "seed" was patrilineal. If we consider the fact that since 2000 years ago, at 4 generations per century, everyone has 2^80 ancestors (with some level of inbreeding) which equals 1.2 heptillion (1.2 E24) ancestors relative to the beginnings of Christianity. And if even one of those ancestors was a Jew turned Christian like Timothy's mother, there may not be a written history of it, but that person would be related to Abraham through Judah's bloodline. That would show up as a blip of nothing statistically on a gene analysis, but it wouldn't change the fact that the person truly has that bloodline.
You can't just say that the Church isn't Israel firstly because 1) denying the ancestry of random people is hateful and obtuse. 2) At the time of New Jerusalem, there is no nation of Israel. 3) If a man and wife become one, and Christ is Israel, what does that make the Church and the Bridegroom, Christ?
On one hand, to my question "Do you agree that the promises have continuity through Christians?" you stated "NO!" And yet here you are in this quote inferring that Jews that became Christians still have the promises. Those are contradictory premises. Either there is continuity or there isn't. It can't be both.
Consider these points:
1) Did Timothy qualify for the promises?
2) Did hypothetical Christian descendants of Timothy qualify for the promises?
I'm beating a dead horse here. You know you screwed up. I doubt you will acknowledge that. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you literally made two completely opposite points in the same post. Unless you are willing to reevaluate your comments and demonstrate some accountability, the only tactic left at your disposal is attacking character, and if that's the case, I have nothing more to say to you, as you will have been just another deceitful doubleminded Dispensationalist.
Surely you are correct, just as this same slander in 'Paul's day' when God
Inspired him write the "Very Words Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST":
sent to Paul and his epistles, The Very Words Revealed To him From
The Risen And Glorified LORD, In The "Revelation Of The MYSTERY"?:
[earthly] "words of Christ" = IMpossible!
If the heavenly and earthly "words" are All MIXED Up / Confused, instead
of Rightly Divided, how then, pray tell, is THIS to be accomplished???:
Precious friend(s), Please Be "Stablished By The Power Of God,"
and VERY Richly Encouraged And Edified In These:
GRACE And Peace...
Inspired him write the "Very Words Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST":
1Ti_6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to Wholesome
Words, Even The [Very] Words of our LORD Jesus Christ, and to the
doctrine which is according to godliness;"
2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of Sound Words, which thou
hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Isn't this the Very Reason men reject [slander Rom. 3:8] and don't con-sent to Paul and his epistles, The Very Words Revealed To him From
The Risen And Glorified LORD, In The "Revelation Of The MYSTERY"?:
Rom 16:25 "Now to Him that is of Power to Stablish you
According to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
According to the Revelation of the Mystery, Which was kept
secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But Now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures
of the prophets, according to the commandment of the
everlasting God, made known to all nations for the
obedience of faith:"
Eph 3:8 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is
This GRACE Given, that I should preach among the Gentiles
The Unsearchable Riches of Christ;" [Heavenly Words!]
............. UNtraceable = cannot be found in the OT/4 gospels, the[earthly] "words of Christ" = IMpossible!
If the heavenly and earthly "words" are All MIXED Up / Confused, instead
of Rightly Divided, how then, pray tell, is THIS to be accomplished???:
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The
Mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid
in God, Who Created all things By Jesus Christ:"
Precious friend(s), Please Be "Stablished By The Power Of God,"
and VERY Richly Encouraged And Edified In These:
"Very Words Of our LORD And Saviour, Jesus Christ"!!!
GRACE And Peace...
yes this is the problem
“asked you to show me in that passage where a condition was set.”
your trying to understand the Bible by limiting it to a passage. You have to let the other scriptures that are explaining it , explain it you do t need to isolate d expect to find it in a “passage “ the understanding is the rest of the scripture where your isolating it from
Sometimes it’s just about we don’t want to hear what the scriptures axrually say about salvstion so we try to make it about a sentance or two
is your want the actual “condition “for salvation you have to learn what Jesus said about salvation it’s incredibly simple
he’s the way , truth and life there’s no other way but through him. The gospel of Matthew , mark Luke and John “ teach us to know our God , what he actually said and what he actually has done for us is what we learn . To hear and believe Gods witness of his son Jesus Christ is the condition of salvstion d he does tell you what you have to do , nd what you can’t keep doing
that’s I guess what one would call a condition os they didn’t want to accept Jesus teaching then how to be saved and have eternal life but that’s not a good place to be
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
as someone who has my faith in Jesus I tend to believe what Jesus said about eternal Life is the way to be saved but I will die on that hill. The reason is that from Moses to all the prophets , to the apostles they are all telling us to believe the gospel and be saved
“asked you to show me in that passage where a condition was set.”
your trying to understand the Bible by limiting it to a passage. You have to let the other scriptures that are explaining it , explain it you do t need to isolate d expect to find it in a “passage “ the understanding is the rest of the scripture where your isolating it from
Sometimes it’s just about we don’t want to hear what the scriptures axrually say about salvstion so we try to make it about a sentance or two
is your want the actual “condition “for salvation you have to learn what Jesus said about salvation it’s incredibly simple
he’s the way , truth and life there’s no other way but through him. The gospel of Matthew , mark Luke and John “ teach us to know our God , what he actually said and what he actually has done for us is what we learn . To hear and believe Gods witness of his son Jesus Christ is the condition of salvstion d he does tell you what you have to do , nd what you can’t keep doing
that’s I guess what one would call a condition os they didn’t want to accept Jesus teaching then how to be saved and have eternal life but that’s not a good place to be
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
as someone who has my faith in Jesus I tend to believe what Jesus said about eternal Life is the way to be saved but I will die on that hill. The reason is that from Moses to all the prophets , to the apostles they are all telling us to believe the gospel and be saved
“the Israel that we are speaking about failed to obey the law and thus was judged.”
We shouldnt be against Israel of course but many on this thread refuse to acknolwedge what your saying here it’s well established in scripture but we have to read whole prophecies to hear it
the ot is filled with prophecies just like this
“I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou.
These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: ( those who accepted Christ of Israel )
and mine elect shall inherit it, ( the church ) and my servants ( ot Israel’s faithful ) shall dwell there.
But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
that he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. For,
behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
Isaiah 65:1-9, 11-18 KJV
the old isn’t going to be remembered it’s been judged according to thier covenant law and thier desolations have been determined by it
now there’s a new covenant which a remnant of Israel accepted nd th y were saved from the condemnation of Israel’s Old Testament so there are
Men of faith in the ot , Abraham , Noah , Moses , David , job , Daniel ect
but the covenant of the one nation has ended and the new covenant , the gospel with all nations has begun
“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:21, 23-24
Gods spirit has come to live inside us now that’s different we don’t need a specific price of holy ground on earth anymore we can stand in Australia and have Gods spirit living in the temple of our body worshipping him y and everywhere
The promised land is not of this world nor is eternal Life
We shouldnt be against Israel of course but many on this thread refuse to acknolwedge what your saying here it’s well established in scripture but we have to read whole prophecies to hear it
the ot is filled with prophecies just like this
“I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou.
These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: ( those who accepted Christ of Israel )
and mine elect shall inherit it, ( the church ) and my servants ( ot Israel’s faithful ) shall dwell there.
But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
that he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. For,
behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
Isaiah 65:1-9, 11-18 KJV
the old isn’t going to be remembered it’s been judged according to thier covenant law and thier desolations have been determined by it
now there’s a new covenant which a remnant of Israel accepted nd th y were saved from the condemnation of Israel’s Old Testament so there are
Men of faith in the ot , Abraham , Noah , Moses , David , job , Daniel ect
but the covenant of the one nation has ended and the new covenant , the gospel with all nations has begun
“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:21, 23-24
Gods spirit has come to live inside us now that’s different we don’t need a specific price of holy ground on earth anymore we can stand in Australia and have Gods spirit living in the temple of our body worshipping him y and everywhere
The promised land is not of this world nor is eternal Life
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You should try reading the Revelation some time. I definitely recommend reading the New Testament in case you haven't read it before. Learning how to search key words is also a great skill set to develop. There might be self help books in large print that can help you with that. Big print, simple words.
If you go to biblegateway.com and search "new earth" it might fix your confusion about the "nonsense" in the New Testament. But a word of warning, the New Testament might contradict the footnotes you've been following religiously. I hope that you decide that you value Christian scripture over Dispensationalism scripture. But hey, freedom of religion I guess. Who am I to try correct heretics and nonChristians? Maybe someone can leave you a pamphlet about Christianity to see if you are interested. I hope you give the New Testament a fair chance. All the best. Enjoy:
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." - Rev 21:1-2 KJV
If you go to biblegateway.com and search "new earth" it might fix your confusion about the "nonsense" in the New Testament. But a word of warning, the New Testament might contradict the footnotes you've been following religiously. I hope that you decide that you value Christian scripture over Dispensationalism scripture. But hey, freedom of religion I guess. Who am I to try correct heretics and nonChristians? Maybe someone can leave you a pamphlet about Christianity to see if you are interested. I hope you give the New Testament a fair chance. All the best. Enjoy:
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." - Rev 21:1-2 KJV
Think about what you said. My eschatology comes from the scriptures, while yours is hardly two hundred years old. DISPENSATIONALISM comes from apostates like John Darby and C.I. Scofield. You would do well to read about these two individuals who have messed up the church with their invention called DIPSENSATIONALISM.
This doctrine borders on heresy, my friend. You will find it nowhere in the scriptures. As an example, someone who has never heard about dispensationalism and reads the scripture for the first time without any outside aid would be puzzled to discover that it is being taught and passed as a "Biblical truth."
By the way, Revelation is a book that was written TO the first-century churches located in Asia Minor. To read it assuming it was written for the 21st century is a huge leap of faith bigger than the distance from the earth to the moon.
This doctrine borders on heresy, my friend. You will find it nowhere in the scriptures. As an example, someone who has never heard about dispensationalism and reads the scripture for the first time without any outside aid would be puzzled to discover that it is being taught and passed as a "Biblical truth."
By the way, Revelation is a book that was written TO the first-century churches located in Asia Minor. To read it assuming it was written for the 21st century is a huge leap of faith bigger than the distance from the earth to the moon.
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1. Most people who say this do not know or understand dispensational thinking
2. as for your second point. john was told to write down things that were (things of the past) things that are (things happening at the time of writting) and thing to come (things of the future)
all one has to do is read revelation to see if the things of the future have happened yet. If they have, great, if they have not, great, we can know not only since the things that were and are happened, that the things which will happen will happen also.
one thing that is fact, is that revelation ends with the world being destroyed, all resurrection shaven taken place, the judgment of sinners, and the new heavens and new earth. Which means everything from the things which are until then fall in between. they could have happened immediately after John wrote the book, they could have happened 1000 years after he wrote the book, they could happen 1000 years from now. The fact is. Anyone reading the book would not automatically think it all happened back then, it would be easy to see them happening in the 21 century or the 25 or even the 60th, so your second point is in error
2. as for your second point. john was told to write down things that were (things of the past) things that are (things happening at the time of writting) and thing to come (things of the future)
all one has to do is read revelation to see if the things of the future have happened yet. If they have, great, if they have not, great, we can know not only since the things that were and are happened, that the things which will happen will happen also.
one thing that is fact, is that revelation ends with the world being destroyed, all resurrection shaven taken place, the judgment of sinners, and the new heavens and new earth. Which means everything from the things which are until then fall in between. they could have happened immediately after John wrote the book, they could have happened 1000 years after he wrote the book, they could happen 1000 years from now. The fact is. Anyone reading the book would not automatically think it all happened back then, it would be easy to see them happening in the 21 century or the 25 or even the 60th, so your second point is in error
I am for Israel the nation. God has always dealt with Israel as a nation. They fell as a nation and they will rise as a nation. When they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son.
God, the prophet says, will pour upon them a spirit of compassion and a spirit of supplication and they will seek him in prayer, ALL Israel, the men will seek Him separately from the women.
God, the prophet says, will pour upon them a spirit of compassion and a spirit of supplication and they will seek him in prayer, ALL Israel, the men will seek Him separately from the women.
yet you say the everlasting covenant God made to Israel does not last forever.
Here is the proof that God deals with different people differently.
Micah chapter 4.
But in the last days it shall come to pass that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills and people shall flow unto it.
And many nations shall come and say 2come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the house of the God of Jacob and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And He shall judge among many people and rebuke strong nations afar off and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks
nation shall not lift up sword against nation neither shall they learn war anymore.
But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. verse 1-4
This constitutes the famous Jewish dream. This is the Messianic reign, the kingdom of God. This is what the Jews expected from the Messiah when He came. This is why they flocked to Jesus when He announced "the Kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe the good news"
Now lets compare that to what Jesus predicted for the last days.
You shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, nation shall rise up against nation and kingdoms against kingdoms, there will famines in divers places ... these are but the beginning of sorrows.
Both prophecies come from Jesus, whether Isaiah or Micah or the Lord in person it is Jesus speaking ... right? they both concern the last days and they paint completely opposite pictures.
Jesu's prophecy concerns the church while it is in the nations in the last days, Isaiah's prophecy concerns Israel.
Isaiah's or Micah's prophecy can only come to pass after the Lord returns, it cannot come to pass in this present age for right up to the moment of Christ's appearing the world is in rebellion. It can only come to pass in a new age, a new dispensation.
Here is the proof that God deals with different people differently.
Micah chapter 4.
But in the last days it shall come to pass that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills and people shall flow unto it.
And many nations shall come and say 2come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the house of the God of Jacob and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And He shall judge among many people and rebuke strong nations afar off and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks
nation shall not lift up sword against nation neither shall they learn war anymore.
But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. verse 1-4
This constitutes the famous Jewish dream. This is the Messianic reign, the kingdom of God. This is what the Jews expected from the Messiah when He came. This is why they flocked to Jesus when He announced "the Kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe the good news"
Now lets compare that to what Jesus predicted for the last days.
You shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, nation shall rise up against nation and kingdoms against kingdoms, there will famines in divers places ... these are but the beginning of sorrows.
Both prophecies come from Jesus, whether Isaiah or Micah or the Lord in person it is Jesus speaking ... right? they both concern the last days and they paint completely opposite pictures.
Jesu's prophecy concerns the church while it is in the nations in the last days, Isaiah's prophecy concerns Israel.
Isaiah's or Micah's prophecy can only come to pass after the Lord returns, it cannot come to pass in this present age for right up to the moment of Christ's appearing the world is in rebellion. It can only come to pass in a new age, a new dispensation.
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I'm not sure of your reading or comprehension skills but I have repeatedly stated that I am not a dispensationist. I'll touch on it once more so as to help you understand... I don't read the Scofield bible, I an not a dispensastionist nor do I follow the teachings of Darby.
Now back to the question I ask you(you rambled on without answering it in your response) ..... Who do you see as fulfilling the Scriptures in Revelation 13 pertaining to the mark the name or the number of the beast prior to the events of ad70? This is a very simple question I'm asking you so if you will please just simply state who it was who you believe received the mark and worshiped the image of the beast and fulfilled those Scriptures,(the Jews,the Romans,the Egyptians ect. whoever it is you believe did this) if you don't know the answer just say so and I/we can move on to tying to find another in the group who sees these thing as fulfilled by ad70 that is better skilled at answering these questions.
yes I hear you for sure , I just methionine that we’re not against them because some actually seem to be against them ( not at all what i thought you were saying )
I think things like this hold answers
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Romans 9:6-8
While the is doesn’t explain To us how the flesh israel is different from the spiritual israel , it’s introducing Tony’s the understanding that there is an israel that is identified by flesh and blood , and another israel not based on flesh and blood but on receiving the promise of the gospel
“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:26-29 KJV
Abraham was not only made a promise based on the land but he was made an everlasting promise according to faith when God made him look into the heavens and imagine the number and glory of the stars
one covenant based on the flesh
“And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.”
Genesis 13:16 KJV
Another based on the promise of the spirit
“And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.”
Genesis 15:5 KJV
He gave the flesh children the earthly land , he’s promised the spiritual children a new and eternal homeland free of sin and wickedness forever where he dwells among them as thier father and they his children
Abraham promise is the kingdom Jesus came offering us
“There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”
Luke 13:28 KJV
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
Revelation 21:1-5, 7 KJV
That’s when Israel’s restoration happens the new people created through Christ and his gospel will inherit the new earth and God will dwell among us in a truly perfect world
Gods israel Is going to be restored but not according to the first covenant it’s being restored through Christ
anyways brother thanks for bearing with me
I think things like this hold answers
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Romans 9:6-8
While the is doesn’t explain To us how the flesh israel is different from the spiritual israel , it’s introducing Tony’s the understanding that there is an israel that is identified by flesh and blood , and another israel not based on flesh and blood but on receiving the promise of the gospel
“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:26-29 KJV
Abraham was not only made a promise based on the land but he was made an everlasting promise according to faith when God made him look into the heavens and imagine the number and glory of the stars
one covenant based on the flesh
“And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.”
Genesis 13:16 KJV
Another based on the promise of the spirit
“And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.”
Genesis 15:5 KJV
He gave the flesh children the earthly land , he’s promised the spiritual children a new and eternal homeland free of sin and wickedness forever where he dwells among them as thier father and they his children
Abraham promise is the kingdom Jesus came offering us
“There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”
Luke 13:28 KJV
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
Revelation 21:1-5, 7 KJV
That’s when Israel’s restoration happens the new people created through Christ and his gospel will inherit the new earth and God will dwell among us in a truly perfect world
Gods israel Is going to be restored but not according to the first covenant it’s being restored through Christ
anyways brother thanks for bearing with me
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