There will be no Rapture!!!

The souls of those who have died are with Jesus and those still alive on the earth.
Just a Paul states, Jesus will bring them with Him at His second coming and they will receive their glorified body and then those who are alive will receive theirs.
Jesus than continues to the earth, cast the man of sin and his false prophet alive into the lake of fire, changes Satan in the pit for a 1000 years, establishes His 1000 reign, and instructs his angles to pour out the 7 vials of His wrath upon the wicked.

Each is referring to the ones being resurrected not to a multiple number of resurrections.

Are you saying the body of Christ as described in Revelation 19 are dead in Christ, souls with the Lord, and those who are alive on the earth? She, both dead and alive, has made herself ready? When does the marriage take place? On earth? A lot of holes in your theory...

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Be honest and post all my quote

If I am correct, you believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church and also all the saved are the church.
So where are those church members that have already died today?

No it doesn't. You're taking that 7 year period left over from Daniel and slapping on that The Tribulation Period. No justification for doing so. If there is share why you feel this way.

You prove otherwise. Good luck.

@Rockson ,

To answer your question briefly (I'm occupied with work, atm),

--First, Daniel 9:24-27 is written SEQUENTIALLY;

--Secondly, the SEQUENCE issue of Lk21:12's "But BEFORE all these..." (meaning, BEFORE ALL the 'beginning of birth pangs' just described in vv.8-11--parallel Matt24:4-8 and Mk13:5-8), BEFORE ALL THOSE BoBPs, the events of verses 12-24a,b (the 70ad events) must take place first; This connects then with the sequence spelled out in Dan9;

--In Lk21:32, "...till ALL shall have taken place," must necessarily INCLUDE those "of-lengthy-duration" things which v.24 had just covered (including its own "UNTIL" matter)




ALL of these "sequence" issues require that the "70th Week" not have immediately followed the conclusion of the 69 Weeks (concluded on what we call Palm Sunday), nor to have taken place in the events surrounding 70ad (vv.12-24a,b) which comes BEFORE;

"The beginning of birth pangs" = the SEALS of Rev6... and Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] had just stated that these are INCLUDED within the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and which end with His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19 (i.e. the 7-yr period leading up to THAT).







[not to mention that Paul, in 1Th5:1-3, states that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that comes upon a woman... referring to that which Jesus had spoken of, namely in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 as the INITIAL ONE of those... which is SEAL #1 / first "BP"... at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that leads up to His RETURN to the earth in Rev19]

Gotta be brief coz I'm presently occupied with work (irl, lol)...

Consider how the word "tagma [order / rank]" (G5001) is used in the LXX (Septuagint Greek of the OT), used 15x according to BLB, here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g5001/nasb95/lxx/ss0/0-1/ [G5001 - tagma] - read each verse carefully = )





[also check out the section under the heading "Thayer's" for further info]

Precious friend, since this thread is ↑ :

I'll be glad to discuss this one on one with you, if you would like to
go here?:

Mystery Departure vs Prophesied 2nd Coming

Grace, Peace, Mercy, And Love

Amen.

Proves my point. Each refers to those being resurrected not to a multitude of resurrections
You still have not addressed my post on the first resurrection as explained in Rev. 20.

Your are making a point that G3509 is used only once to refer to a crowd of people, and that is suppose to prove what? That G3507 means a crowd of people whenever you want it to?

I get annoyed with using Strong's numbers instead of words so I'll stop. When Jesus spoke of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven Hebrews hadn't been written yet. The apostles wouldn't have been using their New Testaments... along with the Strong's Dictionary at the back like some kind of secret decoder ring... to interpret Jesus' words because Strong's hadn't been written yet, and neither had much of the New Testament.

When Jesus ascended, He went behind a cloud, as the apostles witnessed. He will return in like manner as He left. Do you think He ascended and the apostles saw him until he went behind a crowd of people? If so, how did those people get up in the sky? And why doesn't Acts 1 say a 'cloud of witnesses' to clarify, and use νέφος instead of νέφος, which, as you point out, was only used ONE time in the whole Bible. In Hebrews 12, the passage says 'cloud of witnesses', not just cloud. It clarifies it.

And why are forms of νέφος instead of νέφος used in reference to the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven and the saints being caught up into the cloud?

He does return with angels, but why would you think the reference to clouds here has anything to do with angels? He ascended, went behind a cloud, and will return in like manner.... and references to His return mention clouds, so why allegoricalize it?

[/quote]


This is a rather linguistically convoluted argument and doesn't explain why he'd use ἀήρ. If you are talking about πνεῦμα and ψυχή, from which we get pneuma- and 'psyche', that makes sense. But why would being caught up into the air have to do with these words?

If you are listening to someone promoting an allegorical interpretation, you should ask whether it makes sense. You could also consider if there is a consistent use of the allegory that really holds up to examination. I've seen different arguments about the use of the word 'clouds' from amil folks. Honestly, I don't think there is much to build a pattern on as far as scripture interpretation goes.

Some allegorical interpretations are so far fetched that I'd expect the only rational approach to believing in it is if someone says, 'Thus saith the Lord, this word means such and such' and you believed they were a prophet. Otherwise, it looks like weird far-fetched guesswork.

Another good question is to ask if there is any chance at all an original listener or reader of the book would have a chance of understanding your interpretation.

This is a rather linguistically convoluted argument and doesn't explain why he'd use ἀήρ. If you are talking about πνεῦμα and ψυχή, from which we get pneuma- and 'psyche', that makes sense. But why would being caught up into the air have to do with these words?

If you are listening to someone promoting an allegorical interpretation, you should ask whether it makes sense. You could also consider if there is a consistent use of the allegory that really holds up to examination. I've seen different arguments about the use of the word 'clouds' from amil folks. Honestly, I don't think there is much to build a pattern on as far as scripture interpretation goes.

Some allegorical interpretations are so far fetched that I'd expect the only rational approach to believing in it is if someone says, 'Thus saith the Lord, this word means such and such' and you believed they were a prophet. Otherwise, it looks like weird far-fetched guesswork.

Another good question is to ask if there is any chance at all an original listener or reader of the book would have a chance of understanding your interpretation.[/QUOTE]

If one was having trouble understanding what Inha
This is a rather linguistically convoluted argument and doesn't explain why he'd use ἀήρ. If you are talking about πνεῦμα and ψυχή, from which we get pneuma- and 'psyche', that makes sense. But why would being caught up into the air have to do with these words?

If you are listening to someone promoting an allegorical interpretation, you should ask whether it makes sense. You could also consider if there is a consistent use of the allegory that really holds up to examination. I've seen different arguments about the use of the word 'clouds' from amil folks. Honestly, I don't think there is much to build a pattern on as far as scripture interpretation goes.

Some allegorical interpretations are so far fetched that I'd expect the only rational approach to believing in it is if someone says, 'Thus saith the Lord, this word means such and such' and you believed they were a prophet. Otherwise, it looks like weird far-fetched guesswork.

Another good question is to ask if there is any chance at all an original listener or reader of the book would have a chance of understanding your interpretation.[/QUOTE]

How do you believe people interpreted this before 1830? Was not this originally from port Glasgow, Scotland, in the Spring of the year A.D. 1830, a bedridden woman had a revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in where she was shown what has become to be known as "The Rapture Of The Church." Prior to this day, the concept of an 'at any moment, fly away doctrine' (Rapture) was unknown. Within the first few paragraphs of her monumental Scripture-riddled statement. Ms. Macdonald makes an ominous statement about her vision, in that at first, at the time of the vision, it felt as though there was "Great darkness" and "Error" about it. This is something that rapture believers seem to always leave out.

Below, I have quoted from the first few paragraphs of her infamous 'Rapture of the Church' revelation, taken from Ms. Margaret Macdonald's own handwritten account of her 1830 pre-trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. And also found in The restoration of Apostles and prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. And also found in The incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A:

"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light."

-- Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)

Ms. MacDonald then goes on to outline a series of 'visions' now known as the Rapture Doctrine. The spirit world is very real, but there is the Holy Spirit of God and there are satan's evil spirits, demons and the like. This is why the Bible strictly prohibits the conjuring up of spirits and communicating with the dead (Necromancy). Margaret Macdonald might well have been visited by a spirit on her sick bed that day, an evil spirit!

I Jn 4:1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)

Just as the young girl below who though she was visiting with the Mother Mary. Observe below as satan fulfils the Scripture: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" {2 Cor 11:14}:

"He was ugly, horribly ugly. You cannot imagine how ugly, he almost killed me with his gaze, I almost fainted. Then Satan went away and Our Lady came and said to me: "...renew the use of holy water, wear blessed objects and holy objects and put them in your homes." "

-- Mirjana Dragicevic, describing a Mother Mary Apparition
in Medjugorje Yugoslavia, on April 14, 1982.

After Macdonald's vision was made known in town, two preachers heard of it, repackaged it as their own and sold it to the world. Hence, the ungodly Rapture 'Doctrine' is born in the Spring of A.D. 1830. There is some indication that the Roman Catholic Jesuit priesthood had some hand in this but as of now I cannot satisfactorily document this.

Even before discussions of this so called event “rapture” one must be honest and admit this is a new age concept.

All of that has been thoroughly debunked here. Several times in fact.

Furthermore, the legit Bible students here on CC give those kinds of rumors and myths zero cred.
The Scriptures themselves are frankly.....utterly conclusive. Pre-trib all the way.

It has been shown there are saints on the earth, brethren on the earth, elects on the earth during the tribulation…. There has been no adequate rebuttal to these scriptures.

Armor is put on for battle. The tribulation was shortened so the elects could make it through the tribulation.

"And show me any place in Revelation chapter 6 thru 19 and where the term "Christian" or "Church" is mentioned.And who are the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5? Remember, ch 4 & 5 come before ch 6."

https://christianchat.com/threads/there-will-be-no-rapture.212356/post-5146060

Still waiting for your proof texts. If you can find them.

I can save you some trouble by telling you.....the specific terms "Church" and "Christian" are nowhere to be found.
And the 24 Elders identify themselves as the raptured Church in exacting and unequivocal terms.

Church can not be found in Mark, Luke or John,

Wow just 24 in the raptured church!

First of all, what is the church? It is a body of believers. The church of Christ is the many-member body of the faithful. Ok, the Rapture doctors state that the Church is not mentioned after {Rev 4:1}, but then our Sunday-schooler opens his/her Bible to the last chapter in the book of Revelation, the sixth verse from the end of the Bible even, to Jesus Christ's last recorded words*, and reads:

Rev 22:16 (Jesus' last recorded words*)
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And then there is the mention in {Rev 17:5-6} of the Saints that were martyred, what about them? Are they not of the Church which supposedly is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four? And what about the: "and their fellowservants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" {Rev 6:11}, are they not of the 'Church'? Or: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" {Rev 7:13}, are you prepared to say that these who overcame the Great Tribulation are not considered the end time Church on earth either?!?

Or, try this one on for size, is this not after Revelation chapter four: "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" {Rev 9:4}, if they can only hurt those on the earth without the seal of God then it logically stands to reason that there are those on earth who do have the seal of God on the earth which they are chastened not to injure; these are NOT the 144,000, this is chronologically before the sealing of the 144,000, the 144,000 are not sealed for another five months yet. So, are these not of the Church that supposedly isn't mentioned?!?

Or what about this Scripture, is this not the Church??? Who are these saints, spoken of prior to the end of the earth, whom are on the earth during the 6th and 7th trump (the last) if not true believers, and if true believers then are they not the Church? You remember what a church is - it is simply a body of believers not having walls or name: "14 The second woe is past [6th trump]; and, behold, the third woe [7th trump] cometh quickly...15 And the seventh angel sounded [7th trump]; and there were great voices in heaven...17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned...18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" {Rev 11:14-18}. [This is not speaking of the Great White Throne Judgment day {Rev 20:11-15} which isn't for at least another 1000 years (after the Millennium), this is the Second Advent of Christ when He comes with a rod of iron and great fury and wrath {Rev19:11-21}]

Show me in the book of Revelation where 'pretribulational rapture' is mentioned. Show me were a similar word is mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Oooh, it isn't mentioned. That proves there is no pretribulational rapture.... right? Isn't that the line of reasoning you are using?

I would also point out that the use of 'church' to refer to the body of Christ globally, universally, or whatnot, is exclusive to Paul as far as I can tell. At least, I have read this in a book that addressed the usage of the term 'church' in scripture and can't think of any counter-examples. And Paul comes to use this later in his epistles. I know of no example where John uses this. John uses 'church' to refer to a congregation on the city-level or some local assembly, as far as I can ascertain from the churches in questions. So it makes sense that at a world-wide level, he would use 'saints.'

We also have more to the Bible than the book of Revelation of St. John. In II Thessalonians 1, we can see that Jesus comes back to give the church rest from tribulation. He is addressing the Thessalonian church, but does refer to the ekklesia. At the same time Jesus comes back to give the church rest from tribulation, He will also execute vengeance on them that believe not. The passage refers to this as 'that day' and continues on to chapter 2 which refers to the day of Christ not occurring until the man of sin is revealed.