Christ is God

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SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
702
447
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
I, the LORD—the first and the last—I am He.” (Is 41:4)
Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called: I am He; I am the first, and I am the last.
Christ is the great I AM. I threw the awesome revelation Christ made to Moses when he asked about God's name and received the response, "I AM WHO I AM" into a Google search and their AI came back with:

AI Overview
Learn more…Opens in new tab


The Hebrew phrase for "I am who I am" is ehyeh asher ehyeh (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎). The word ehyeh is the first person singular of the verb "to be".

In Exodus 3:14, God says to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM". This phrase can be interpreted in a number of ways, including:

  • Self-sufficiency: A statement of self-existence, immediate presence, and self-sufficiency

  • God's existence: God's existence is not dependent on anyone or anything else

  • God's plans: God's plans are not dependent on any circumstances

  • God's declaration: God is declaring that he was, is, and will always be God

  • God's word play: The name "Yahweh" sounds similar to "ehyeh", and some believe it is a word play on it

  • God's evasiveness: Some believe that God is being intentionally evasive, and is not disclosing anything

  • God's eternality: Some theologians interpret it as meaning that God is the eternally existent one
I don't agree with "God's evasiveness," though. Christ has clearly revealed Himself to us through His Word, and He was certainly not trying to evade Mose and the Israelites at that time. He was in the process of delivering Israel from slavery in Egypt, and "I AM" (the Eternal) was their Redeemer. He's ours as well!
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
702
447
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Amen brother you know what I was noticing about revelation ? The temple construction on the old testement is a pattern of what’s in heaven.

The inner room

“And he made the candlestick of pure gold,( it has three branches on each side of the candlestick ) Their knops and their branches were of the same: all of it was one beaten work of pure gold. And he made his seven lamps, and his snuffers, and his snuffdishes, of pure gold.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭37:17, 22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Those are patterned after Aaron’s garments the priest had to be dressed completely to his feet so the lord didn’t see his nakedness and his service was mostly in the inner room before the candlestick of gold before the lord to shine light in the darkness of the temple

revelation really becomes interesting when you look at the patterns in the law for the tabernacle , high priest , altars and sacrifices , the ark of the covenant , and the layout of the temple the candlestick of gold , the table of shewbread ect all represents things in the nt that are revealed in the heavenly things John shows us
I agree, brother, and God's plan for humanity was laid out in detail with Moses and the covenant God made with His chosen people, Israel, several thousand years ago. Jesus Christ brought that revelation to a whole new level with the new covenant that applies to all who accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

I think we can easily overlook the fact that the book of Revelation is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" (v.1). God is not hiding anything from us in this often misinterpreted and misunderstood book of the Bible. Although there are some difficult passages and imagery that haven't been unlocked fully yet about end time events (some may disagree with me on this point), the gospel and God's plan of salvation is made quite clear in this critical text of our Christian faith.

I love your observation on how John was "in the Spirit" of the heavenly temple with Jesus as our High Priest there to greet him. Until you pointed this out, I didn't make the connection between Christ's garments matching Aaron's back in the first tabernacle and later in the two temples of Jerusalem with the garments the high priest was supposed to wear to perform his duties. The priesthood on earth is a type of the priesthood in heaven, and Jesus is there as our Mediator: "But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them (Hebrews 7: 24-25). Christ is our bridge to the Holy of Holies in heaven where our prayers are like sweet incense before God the Father.

I didn't see the connection between the seven golden candlesticks in the heavenly temple relating to the "seven lamps" of the menorah in the earthly tabernacle/temples either. Seven is a number for completion in the Bible, and the seven branches of the menorah represent the seven days of creation with the Sabbath being at the center. But as you noted, the seven lamps of OT times also pointed towards the seven churches in Revelation as well. And in God's plan of salvation as alluded to by prophecy, we have the six days (6000 years?) of humanity's fallen state followed up with the seventh day (defined clearly as 1000 years in Revelation 20) of Christ's reign over the earth during the millennium.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
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I agree, brother, and God's plan for humanity was laid out in detail with Moses and the covenant God made with His chosen people, Israel, several thousand years ago. Jesus Christ brought that revelation to a whole new level with the new covenant that applies to all who accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

I think we can easily overlook the fact that the book of Revelation is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" (v.1). God is not hiding anything from us in this often misinterpreted and misunderstood book of the Bible. Although there are some difficult passages and imagery that haven't been unlocked fully yet about end time events (some may disagree with me on this point), the gospel and God's plan of salvation is made quite clear in this critical text of our Christian faith.

I love your observation on how John was "in the Spirit" of the heavenly temple with Jesus as our High Priest there to greet him. Until you pointed this out, I didn't make the connection between Christ's garments matching Aaron's back in the first tabernacle and later in the two temples of Jerusalem with the garments the high priest was supposed to wear to perform his duties. The priesthood on earth is a type of the priesthood in heaven, and Jesus is there as our Mediator: "But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them (Hebrews 7: 24-25). Christ is our bridge to the Holy of Holies in heaven where our prayers are like sweet incense before God the Father.

I didn't see the connection between the seven golden candlesticks in the heavenly temple relating to the "seven lamps" of the menorah in the earthly tabernacle/temples either. Seven is a number for completion in the Bible, and the seven branches of the menorah represent the seven days of creation with the Sabbath being at the center. But as you noted, the seven lamps of OT times also pointed towards the seven churches in Revelation as well. And in God's plan of salvation as alluded to by prophecy, we have the six days (6000 years?) of humanity's fallen state followed up with the seventh day (defined clearly as 1000 years in Revelation 20) of Christ's reign over the earth during the millennium.
“And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not. And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE Lord. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

And thou shalt embroider the coat of fine linen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework. And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach: and they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭28:4, 6, 35-36, 38-39, 42-43‬ ‭

Speak unto Aaron, and say unto him, When thou lightest the lamps, the seven lamps shall give light over against the candlestick. And Aaron did so; he lighted the lamps thereof over against the candlestick, as the LORD commanded Moses. And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭8:2-4‬ ‭

“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The inner room where the priestly service was conducted by the high priest and then the holy of holies where the ark and mercy seat was where Gods flory would meet the preist before the altar

“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.( ark and mercy seat where God appeared ) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. ( the seven lamps tbat were always kept burning by the high priest )

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: ( table of shewbread) and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.”( the four knops and four rings which bore the ark of the covenant with the poles )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:2-3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ect
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
702
447
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.( ark and mercy seat where God appeared ) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. ( the seven lamps tbat were always kept burning by the high priest )

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: ( table of shewbread) and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.”( the four knops and four rings which bore the ark of the covenant with the poles )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:2-3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
We are on the same page, brother, because I wanted to address the vision John shared with us of the 3rd heaven, and it appears John received a glimpse of God the Father on His throne in the Holy of Holies:

Revelation 4:2-3

New King James Version

2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 [a]And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

I thought this was Christ again because Jesus said that no one has seen the Father except Jesus up to that point in John 6:46. However, as I continued to read into chapter 5 of Revelation, Christ appears in a completely different image from that of High Priest when He initially greeted John in his vision:

Revelation 5:6-7

New King James Version

6 And I looked, [a]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

The twenty-four elders "...fell down before the Lamb..." and sang "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals, for you were slain and have redeemed us to God by your blood..." (Rev. 5: 8-9). The Lamb, Christ Jesus, takes the scroll "out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne," Our Father in heaven. Jesus sits at the "right hand of God" (I Peter 3: 22), and His ascension and the visions a few received afterwards offers us a slight peak at our Father in His glorious throne room.

Stephen saw Jesus and God the Father just prior to his martyrdom (Acts 2: 55-56), and Paul refers to a "man in Christ", probably himself, who was "...caught up to the third heaven...and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (II Cor. 12: 2,4). He doesn't say that he saw Christ or God the Father, but he was there in heaven with them, and it was so real that he wasn't sure if he was literally taken there in the body or not (v. 2-3).

The glimpses of the heavenly abode of God we are given in Revelation and elsewhere in God's Word give me hope of that better life and dwelling place that awaits us after we finish our work of spreading the gospel in this troubled world!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
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We are on the same page, brother, because I wanted to address the vision John shared with us of the 3rd heaven, and it appears John received a glimpse of God the Father on His throne in the Holy of Holies:

Revelation 4:2-3

New King James Version

2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 [a]And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

I thought this was Christ again because Jesus said that no one has seen the Father except Jesus up to that point in John 6:46. However, as I continued to read into chapter 5 of Revelation, Christ appears in a completely different image from that of High Priest when He initially greeted John in his vision:

Revelation 5:6-7

New King James Version

6 And I looked, [a]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

The twenty-four elders "...fell down before the Lamb..." and sang "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals, for you were slain and have redeemed us to God by your blood..." (Rev. 5: 8-9). The Lamb, Christ Jesus, takes the scroll "out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne," Our Father in heaven. Jesus sits at the "right hand of God" (I Peter 3: 22), and His ascension and the visions a few received afterwards offers us a slight peak at our Father in His glorious throne room.

Stephen saw Jesus and God the Father just prior to his martyrdom (Acts 2: 55-56), and Paul refers to a "man in Christ", probably himself, who was "...caught up to the third heaven...and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (II Cor. 12: 2,4). He doesn't say that he saw Christ or God the Father, but he was there in heaven with them, and it was so real that he wasn't sure if he was literally taken there in the body or not (v. 2-3).

The glimpses of the heavenly abode of God we are given in Revelation and elsewhere in God's Word give me hope of that better life and dwelling place that awaits us after we finish our work of spreading the gospel in this troubled world!
Amen brother to all you said and say we always seem to be able to agree on what we’re both saying and still say what we are saying I think we learn from each other well or maybe rather we share the word together with one another well and discuss it in a spirit of peace I always enjoy the notifications with your name always have because I know it will be constructive and edifying for me

Seven hundred years appx before Christ and the gospel of the kingdom arrived and before he ascended to heaven Daniel sees a vision of something far off in the distance

“I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

…I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:9, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

revelation of Jesus Christ our lord

“and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.

And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:13-15, 17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him:”

revelation of Jesus Christ
“And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Daniel saw from a. Distance John is called upon to the scene as its unfolding and hears and sees much more what it means and what they are saying because John had heard Jesus and known him

always a pleasure in tbe lord brother I enjoy alot how we both allow each other to freely speak and share without offense
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
702
447
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Amen brother to all you said and say we always seem to be able to agree on what we’re both saying and still say what we are saying I think we learn from each other well or maybe rather we share the word together with one another well and discuss it in a spirit of peace I always enjoy the notifications with your name always have because I know it will be constructive and edifying for me

Seven hundred years appx before Christ and the gospel of the kingdom arrived and before he ascended to heaven Daniel sees a vision of something far off in the distance

“I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

…I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:9, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

revelation of Jesus Christ our lord

“and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.

And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:13-15, 17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him:”

revelation of Jesus Christ
“And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

“And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Daniel saw from a. Distance John is called upon to the scene as its unfolding and hears and sees much more what it means and what they are saying because John had heard Jesus and known him

always a pleasure in tbe lord brother I enjoy alot how we both allow each other to freely speak and share without offense
I really enjoy our fellowship as well, Pilgrim, and your insights are thoughtful and edifying. You bring up new twists I haven't considered and find applicable scripture to enhance our conversation like the vision Daniel shares in chapter 7 that is very similar to John's in Revelation.

I love the name "Ancient of Days" for God. It has that eternal feel to it, and it's encouraging to know that our God has always been around, and He will always be there for us each and every day and forever into eternity.

You're right, the Ancient of Days in Daniel chapter 7 is God the Father, and the One like the Son of Man is Jesus:


Daniel 7:13-14

New King James Version

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!

He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

This is a clear reference to Christ's 2nd coming in power and glory to be our King and bring all the world together under His righteous leadership during the millennium and then forever in the new heavens and new earth with the New Jerusalem as His capital.

Jesus refers to Daniel's vision during His Olivet prophecy as well:

Matthew 24:29-30

New King James Version

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Where Christ's return brings great hope and joy to our hearts as Christians, that's not the case with unbelievers - "...all the tribes of the earth will mourn." It's like the reference in Revelation where Babylon the Great has fallen, and people are in mourning over that as well (Rev. 18: 9-11). Even after the tribulation with destruction, suffering, and death like this world has never seen before, the unrepentant heart is still hardened by Satan and his flawed culture and society grounded in materialism.

The tribulation and Christ's "...coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" could be seen as an invasion by alien species of our planet. That will all be cleared up quickly when Christ swiftly overthrows His enemies, binds Satan and his demons, and begins building a new society based on a Christian culture of justice, mercy, and truth. Christ will rule with a rod of iron as needed, but that rod will be a staff of love and grace as well.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
I really enjoy our fellowship as well, Pilgrim, and your insights are thoughtful and edifying. You bring up new twists I haven't considered and find applicable scripture to enhance our conversation like the vision Daniel shares in chapter 7 that is very similar to John's in Revelation.

I love the name "Ancient of Days" for God. It has that eternal feel to it, and it's encouraging to know that our God has always been around, and He will always be there for us each and every day and forever into eternity.

You're right, the Ancient of Days in Daniel chapter 7 is God the Father, and the One like the Son of Man is Jesus:


Daniel 7:13-14

New King James Version

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,

And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

This is a clear reference to Christ's 2nd coming in power and glory to be our King and bring all the world together under His righteous leadership during the millennium and then forever in the new heavens and new earth with the New Jerusalem as His capital.

Jesus refers to Daniel's vision during His Olivet prophecy as well:

Matthew 24:29-30

New King James Version

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Where Christ's return brings great hope and joy to our hearts as Christians, that's not the case with unbelievers - "...all the tribes of the earth will mourn." It's like the reference in Revelation where Babylon the Great has fallen, and people are in mourning over that as well (Rev. 18: 9-11). Even after the tribulation with destruction, suffering, and death like this world has never seen before, the unrepentant heart is still hardened by Satan and his flawed culture and society grounded in materialism.

The tribulation and Christ's "...coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" could be seen as an invasion by alien species of our planet. That will all be cleared up quickly when Christ swiftly overthrows His enemies, binds Satan and his demons, and begins building a new society based on a Christian culture of justice, mercy, and truth. Christ will rule with a rod of iron as needed, but that rod will be a staff of love and grace as well.
“I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and
the hair of his head like the pure wool:
his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire
.

…thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:10‬ ‭

look carefully here

“behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,”
And they brought Him near before Him.

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,

And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.”


before jesus was born

“And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:31-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after Israel rejected and killed tbier king and he is raised from the dead

The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; And his kingdom ruleth over all.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭103:19‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Shortly after that

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, Upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

So will not we go back from thee: Quicken us, and we will call upon thy name. Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, Cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭80:17-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20:42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:69‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore being a ( David ) prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:30-33, 36‬ ‭

I think daniels vision in chapter seven there is about Jesus ascending up to heaven and gods throne receiving all power and judgement in the heavenly kingdom that will one day return to a new earth.

“If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not,

how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. ( then Daniel sees what happens in heaven )

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He will appear twice in the clouds once when he ascended up and then again when he returns with the new things of his kingdom in heaven
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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I really enjoy our fellowship as well, Pilgrim, and your insights are thoughtful and edifying. You bring up new twists I haven't considered and find applicable scripture to enhance our conversation like the vision Daniel shares in chapter 7 that is very similar to John's in Revelation.

I love the name "Ancient of Days" for God. It has that eternal feel to it, and it's encouraging to know that our God has always been around, and He will always be there for us each and every day and forever into eternity.

You're right, the Ancient of Days in Daniel chapter 7 is God the Father, and the One like the Son of Man is Jesus:


Daniel 7:13-14

New King James Version

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,

And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

This is a clear reference to Christ's 2nd coming in power and glory to be our King and bring all the world together under His righteous leadership during the millennium and then forever in the new heavens and new earth with the New Jerusalem as His capital.

Jesus refers to Daniel's vision during His Olivet prophecy as well:

Matthew 24:29-30

New King James Version

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Where Christ's return brings great hope and joy to our hearts as Christians, that's not the case with unbelievers - "...all the tribes of the earth will mourn." It's like the reference in Revelation where Babylon the Great has fallen, and people are in mourning over that as well (Rev. 18: 9-11). Even after the tribulation with destruction, suffering, and death like this world has never seen before, the unrepentant heart is still hardened by Satan and his flawed culture and society grounded in materialism.

The tribulation and Christ's "...coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" could be seen as an invasion by alien species of our planet. That will all be cleared up quickly when Christ swiftly overthrows His enemies, binds Satan and his demons, and begins building a new society based on a Christian culture of justice, mercy, and truth. Christ will rule with a rod of iron as needed, but that rod will be a staff of love and grace as well.
The Coming of the Son of Man

“29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

each testament has a coming of Jesus when it’s fulfilled , each has a resurrection promised to its people. And then there’s a promise of the messiah appearing in the clouds his first coming would be to bear sin , the second he would destroy all evil and bring everlasting salvation

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.( his ascension to Gods throne in heaven receiving all power and judgement ) which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”( his return )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9, 11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many( the gospel we read and study and believe )

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭

Jesus is definetely talking about his return from heaven but I think dabiel is seeing Jesus ascention

each had a promised resurrection as well when the messiah came to fulfill the covenant promises

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: ( prepared for them a city ) then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When the messiah came to fulfill the covenant made with them it included his promises he spoke to them

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:50-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Remember this was meant to be a witness that he is the one Lord who spoke it and then also performed it

“then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”

God spoke himself into existence as the son to create a perfect eternal man a high priest who can intercede and save us

“By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. ……Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:22, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
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Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and by him all things hold together.

Only God can hold all things together.
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 3‬ ‭

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Joh 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The context is about Jesus.....1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1Ti 6:15-16
15 ......the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Only God has immortality and Jesus has life in and of Himself, Jesus is immortal.

If Jesus doesn't have immortality, how can He offer it as a gift to the saved? ???.
 

SilverFox7

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Dec 24, 2022
702
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63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.( his ascension to Gods throne in heaven receiving all power and judgement ) which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”( his return )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9, 11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many( the gospel we read and study and believe )

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭

Jesus is definitely talking about his return from heaven but I think Daniel is seeing Jesus ascension

each had a promised resurrection as well when the messiah came to fulfill the covenant promises
…thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:10‬ ‭

look carefully here

“behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,”
And they brought Him near before Him.

14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,

And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.”
I like what you pointed out here regarding Daniel's vision - Jesus' ascension to the Father in heaven where He received the "...kingdom that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him." That has certainly been fulfilled in part, and the Church has done a faithful job under Christ's leadership spreading the gospel to every nation and tongue. The work of giving the good news of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom has not ended for us, and we are setting the stage for His return as "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev. 19:16).

Let's head back to the 3rd heavens again where God is worshipped continually by the heavenly host and those who are blessed to be in His presence like the four living creatures:

Revelation 4:8

New King James Version

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy,[a] holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


God is praised for His holiness, power, and eternal nature, and the twenty-four elders chime in as well:

Revelation 4:9-11

New King James Version

9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, [a]O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they [b]exist and were created.”


The elders express their gratitude to God who deserves the glory, honor, and power for creation and His will that makes life possible for all of us.

I was talking with a close friend of mine a number of years ago about the worship that takes place in heaven, and he said: "God seems to be an egomaniac having this worship and praise brought before him continually." He didn't mean this in a disrespectful way, and he was just making on honest observation based on the details of Revelation 4. It just appeared to be over the top to him that these beings are in a continual state of worship before God.

I told him that these creatures are in the presence of Almighty God, and they willingly fall before Him in praise and adoration for who God is. They are not forced by God to bow before Him. They can't help but cry out in love and thankfulness for all God is and all he does for His creation. They see God for who He is at the center stage of heaven - a Mighty God of power and glory, yet also a loving God of compassion and grace.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
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Let's head back to the 3rd heavens again where God is worshipped continually by the heavenly host and those who are blessed to be in His presence like the four living creatures:

Revelation 4:8

New King James Version

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy,[a] holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


God is praised for His holiness, power, and eternal nature, and the twenty-four elders chime in as well:

Revelation 4:9-11

New King James Version

9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, [a]O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they [b]exist and were created.”


The elders express their gratitude to God who deserves the glory, honor, and power for creation and His will that makes life possible for all of us.

I was talking with a close friend of mine a number of years ago about the worship that takes place in heaven, and he said: "God seems to be an egomaniac having this worship and praise brought before him continually." He didn't mean this in a disrespectful way, and he was just making on honest observation based on the details of Revelation 4. It just appeared to be over the top to him that these beings are in a continual state of worship before God.

I told him that these creatures are in the presence of Almighty God, and they willingly fall before Him in praise and adoration for who God is. They are not forced by God to bow before Him. They can't help but cry out in love and thankfulness for all God is and all he does for His creation. They see God for who He is at the center stage of heaven - a Mighty God of power and glory, yet also a loving God of compassion and grace.
“Let's head back to the 3rd heavens again where God is worshipped continually by the heavenly host and those who are blessed to be in His presence like the four living creatures:

Revelation 4:8

New King James Version

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, (24 total wings ) were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy,[a] holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


Ezekiel chapter one is where this imagery begins in the apocalyptic order with the four cherubim that are bearing up the lords throne from earth into heaven

behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an oxon the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. …and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.
Ezekiel chapter ten

“And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.

And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.”

And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar. ( in chapter one ) …And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar”

(Ch1 at chebar lion , man eagle oxen , ch10 lifted up from the earth lion man eagle cherub)

revelation

( lion man eagle calf )

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. …

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; and in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my Lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭6:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ezekiel 1, and ten have a lot of scriptures to consider prayerfully about the four creatures revealed in revelation tbey really have a connection to the four horses and riders as each beast shouts “ come and see “a horse and rider carrying a curse of the mosaic law comes out from heaven o to the earth and later one we see them again in other forms and other visions given to John after he sees the riders sent from heaven by the four beasts he then sees four angels being retro’s Ed from doing damage until Gods people are numbered and sealed then later they are turned loose to kill and pillage and destroy

My only point is that there’s a lot going on with the four creatures that appear carrying and surrounding Gods throne before we get to revelation that leads there regarding especially the son of man and glory of God upon the throne they bear up and carry
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
I like what you pointed out here regarding Daniel's vision - Jesus' ascension to the Father in heaven where He received the "...kingdom that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him." That has certainly been fulfilled in part, and the Church has done a faithful job under Christ's leadership spreading the gospel to every nation and tongue. The work of giving the good news of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom has not ended for us, and we are setting the stage for His return as "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev. 19:16).

Let's head back to the 3rd heavens again where God is worshipped continually by the heavenly host and those who are blessed to be in His presence like the four living creatures:

Revelation 4:8

New King James Version

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy,[a] holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


God is praised for His holiness, power, and eternal nature, and the twenty-four elders chime in as well:

Revelation 4:9-11

New King James Version

9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, [a]O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they [b]exist and were created.”


The elders express their gratitude to God who deserves the glory, honor, and power for creation and His will that makes life possible for all of us.

I was talking with a close friend of mine a number of years ago about the worship that takes place in heaven, and he said: "God seems to be an egomaniac having this worship and praise brought before him continually." He didn't mean this in a disrespectful way, and he was just making on honest observation based on the details of Revelation 4. It just appeared to be over the top to him that these beings are in a continual state of worship before God.

I told him that these creatures are in the presence of Almighty God, and they willingly fall before Him in praise and adoration for who God is. They are not forced by God to bow before Him. They can't help but cry out in love and thankfulness for all God is and all he does for His creation. They see God for who He is at the center stage of heaven - a Mighty God of power and glory, yet also a loving God of compassion and grace.
Love what you say here brother your points always are evident and good

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to know him in truth by believing the gospel is salvation
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
702
447
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
“Let's head back to the 3rd heavens again where God is worshipped continually by the heavenly host and those who are blessed to be in His presence like the four living creatures:

Revelation 4:8

New King James Version

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, (24 total wings ) were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy,[a] holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


Ezekiel chapter one is where this imagery begins in the apocalyptic order with the four cherubim that are bearing up the lords throne from earth into heaven

behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an oxon the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. …and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.
Ezekiel chapter ten

“And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.

And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.”

And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar. ( in chapter one ) …And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar”

(Ch1 at chebar lion , man eagle oxen , ch10 lifted up from the earth lion man eagle cherub)

revelation

( lion man eagle calf )

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. …

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; and in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my Lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭6:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ezekiel 1, and ten have a lot of scriptures to consider prayerfully about the four creatures revealed in revelation tbey really have a connection to the four horses and riders as each beast shouts “ come and see “a horse and rider carrying a curse of the mosaic law comes out from heaven o to the earth and later one we see them again in other forms and other visions given to John after he sees the riders sent from heaven by the four beasts he then sees four angels being retro’s Ed from doing damage until Gods people are numbered and sealed then later they are turned loose to kill and pillage and destroy

My only point is that there’s a lot going on with the four creatures that appear carrying and surrounding Gods throne before we get to revelation that leads there regarding especially the son of man and glory of God upon the throne they bear up and carry
This is a really cool mosaic of visions woven together from the OT and NT, brother - thank you for sharing this! A person could spend an entire lifetime linking the imagery in Revelation with all the prophetic nuggets in the OT, and it's not just Daniel and Ezekiel which are both closely tied to Revelation. Zechariah has some great prophetic visions, too, as you illustrate above, and Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the other prophets provide some great glimpses of God's Kingdom, which includes some remarkable beings like the four living creatures.

What's hard for me to visualize is how these four creatures take on different appearances - they are a lion, man, eagle, and calf, yet all "had the likeness of a man" as described by Ezekiel, too. On top of that, their entire bodies and wings are filled with eyes, and they have wheels as well. Artists have attempted to capture these creatures in paintings, which certainly helps, but I think we need to see them firsthand like Ezekiel and John did to appreciate their beauty. Here are a couple of pieces that I really like:





I love the book of Ezekiel, and it's an overlooked gem in the Bible. Like Daniel, he was given some incredible visions and revelations, and I especially love the image of the dead bones coming to life. He also talks about God changing our hearts:

Ezekiel 36:26-28

New King James Version

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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This is a really cool mosaic of visions woven together from the OT and NT, brother - thank you for sharing this! A person could spend an entire lifetime linking the imagery in Revelation with all the prophetic nuggets in the OT, and it's not just Daniel and Ezekiel which are both closely tied to Revelation. Zechariah has some great prophetic visions, too, as you illustrate above, and Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the other prophets provide some great glimpses of God's Kingdom, which includes some remarkable beings like the four living creatures.

What's hard for me to visualize is how these four creatures take on different appearances - they are a lion, man, eagle, and calf, yet all "had the likeness of a man" as described by Ezekiel, too. On top of that, their entire bodies and wings are filled with eyes, and they have wheels as well. Artists have attempted to capture these creatures in paintings, which certainly helps, but I think we need to see them firsthand like Ezekiel and John did to appreciate their beauty. Here are a couple of pieces that I really like:





I love the book of Ezekiel, and it's an overlooked gem in the Bible. Like Daniel, he was given some incredible visions and revelations, and I especially love the image of the dead bones coming to life. He also talks about God changing our hearts:

Ezekiel 36:26-28

New King James Version

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Well said dear brother the prophets really open up revelation also the law of Moses appears in it a lot particularly the song of Moses and Joshua as well ect

i believe the prophets and law together with the gospel itself and nt writings, explains revelation well making it understandable and applicable. And just really is fascinating how each chapter can lead you through the prophetic tineleines and narratives of Israel the nation and it and all nations of earth and the nt
 

SilverFox7

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Dec 24, 2022
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“Let's head back to the 3rd heavens again where God is worshipped continually by the heavenly host and those who are blessed to be in His presence like the four living creatures:

Revelation 4:8

New King James Version

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, (24 total wings ) were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy,[a] holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


Ezekiel chapter one is where this imagery begins in the apocalyptic order with the four cherubim that are bearing up the lords throne from earth into heaven

behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an oxon the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. …and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.
Ezekiel chapter ten

“And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.

And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.”

And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar. ( in chapter one ) …And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar”

(Ch1 at chebar lion , man eagle oxen , ch10 lifted up from the earth lion man eagle cherub)

revelation

( lion man eagle calf )

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. …

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; and in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my Lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭6:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ezekiel 1, and ten have a lot of scriptures to consider prayerfully about the four creatures revealed in revelation tbey really have a connection to the four horses and riders as each beast shouts “ come and see “a horse and rider carrying a curse of the mosaic law comes out from heaven o to the earth and later one we see them again in other forms and other visions given to John after he sees the riders sent from heaven by the four beasts he then sees four angels being retro’s Ed from doing damage until Gods people are numbered and sealed then later they are turned loose to kill and pillage and destroy

My only point is that there’s a lot going on with the four creatures that appear carrying and surrounding Gods throne before we get to revelation that leads there regarding especially the son of man and glory of God upon the throne they bear up and carry
I took a browse through Revelation to see how the glorified Christ manifested Himself to John, and I found three that give different perspectives and descriptions of Christ in heaven. It's amazing how our God can change His appearance as needed to portray different aspects of His character and glory.

Christ as our Glorified High Priest (thanks for pointing this one out, Pilgrim! I hadn't made the connection until your recent insights.)

Revelation 1:12-16

New King James Version

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Christ as our Glorified Lamb of God

Revelation 5:5-6

New King James Version

5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and [a]to loose its seven seals.”
6 And I looked, [b]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Christ as our Glorified King and Lord

Revelation 19:11-16

New King James Version


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [a]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [b]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [c]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

I am so thankful for these glimpses we are given of Christ as our glorified Priest, Savior, King, and Lord. It helps me to have a little better grasp of whose team we are on, and the incredible family and Kingdom we are a part of thanks to Him!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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I took a browse through Revelation to see how the glorified Christ manifested Himself to John, and I found three that give different perspectives and descriptions of Christ in heaven. It's amazing how our God can change His appearance as needed to portray different aspects of His character and glory.

Christ as our Glorified High Priest (thanks for pointing this one out, Pilgrim! I hadn't made the connection until your recent insights.)

Revelation 1:12-16

New King James Version

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Christ as our Glorified Lamb of God

Revelation 5:5-6

New King James Version

5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and [a]to loose its seven seals.”
6 And I looked, [b]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Christ as our Glorified King and Lord

Revelation 19:11-16

New King James Version


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [a]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [b]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [c]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

I am so thankful for these glimpses we are given of Christ as our glorified Priest, Savior, King, and Lord. It helps me to have a little better grasp of whose team we are on, and the incredible family and Kingdom we are a part of thanks to Him!
Amen I love revelation and Hebrews and also ezekeil and zechariah of course Daniel and isaiah and Jeremiah probably some of my favorites that show glimpses of the kingdom from far away looks to johns up close view

also the son of man messiah promised to isreal in chapter 12

Did you notice how the elders cast thier crowns on the ground before the throne before the lamb appears ?

“the four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then in chapter 5 he becomes a man and receives that power and glory because there isn’t one worthy in earth

“And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

(john begins weeping )And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed ( no there’s been a man found worthy ) to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, ( who had cast thier crown before the lord on the throne sayong he was worthy to receive the glory and power ) stood a Lamb as it had been slain, ( chapter one I was dead and am alive again forevermore ) having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. ( the seven lamps in chapter four before the throne )

And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:2-3, 5-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Looking back from the ot remember God was looking down on earth seeing if anyone was worthy and found no one ? So he began promising David a son ? Promising Judah a redeemer ? Promising the son of man the messiah ?

I think John is in heaven looking down into the earth seeing God searching for a man and finds none , then as johns weeping , the messiah appears being proclaimed both victorious and worthy to receive all Power and glory. Sort of revelation is condensing the message of the Bible into a cosmic apacolypse to be understood by viewing through the ot and nt scriptures
 

JaumeJ

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This takes me to when Elohanu was speaking to Moses telling Moses that He would be what He would be, Yahweh. This also lends acceptance that He is the Father, the Son and dthe Holy Spirit, not to mention the appearances in the Book, Revelation.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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This takes me to when Elohanu was speaking to Moses telling Moses that He would be what He would be, Yahweh. This also lends acceptance that He is the Father, the Son and dthe Holy Spirit, not to mention the appearances in the Book, Revelation.
yes God himself on the throne manifest in the messiah who’s being revealed

If we look at revelation with a different idea about what it actually is it allows us to see it differently

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: …
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:10KJV‬‬

…And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

..out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:12-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, the four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:2-3, 9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. ….And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬

“And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The book continues to show us visions of Christ and his affect as n earth and also in heaven

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. ….And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Eventually we see this after all the Chaos unfolds on earth

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:

and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:11-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we look through ot scripture we find all those descriptions of Christ in revelation are accounts of God in the ot

Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; And the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭24:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A ‭revelation of Jesus Christ