The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

They certainly did have to

They did not have to continue to believe..
Strange that you say that when so much of the NT is devoted to COMMANDING, EXHORTING and even WARNING us to ABIDE, REMAIN and CONTINUE in Christ. If we were UNABLE to do anything but ABIDE, REMAIN and CONTINUE in Him such imperatives would be unnecessary. The fact that God issued them shows that we can go the opposite way should we so choose. Yet here you claim believers could abandon faith altogether and still make it into Glory. Paul said this:

…22But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— [this is God's ultimate goal and desired destination for us but to this He adds a condition] 23 IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Colossians 1:22-23)
The conjunction IF indicates that there is a condition that needs to be fulfilled if they are to reach their FINAL HOPE. It does not say we are to go out and perform a lot of works but it does warn that we cannot abandon our faith and still reach the destination. Are some Christians moved away from the hope of the gospel? Paul presents it as a real possibility. Yet according to what you seem to be saying everything we needed to do was accomplished at the moment we were saved without any regard to our abiding and continuing in Him


I also alluded to John 's gospel which also tells us we must REMAIN or CONTINUE in the VINE to continue to possess LIFE. The word ABIDE is a PRESENT TENSE IMPERATIVE VERB which means to "abide in Him and not cease doing so." It is, therefore an ongoing process of mandatory
participation. The idea that WE DO NOT HAVE TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE tells us that we can cease believing and STILL MAKE IT IN.

He who believes is not condemned. Since the word "believes" is present tense we know that the person is not condemned has faith in Christ.

@JimiSurvivor

I see you quoting me but don't see you saying anything that pertains to me, so I'm just reading.

I agree with much of what you're saying.

studier said:
The voice (not the tense) of the verb shows who is doing the action in relation to the subject.

You are right about the Voice being the part of speech that refers to whether the subject is the SOURCE of the action, a RECIPIENT of it or a bit of both. I don't mind being questioned on it and even corrected but Greek is a vast and complex language, Our discussion, however, has primarily been about the tense of the verb. It is that which conveys not only the time the action took place but the TYPE as well (how it unfolded) - whether it was completed in the past or ongoing in the present. The perfect tense says that the action began in the past, reached completion leaving a completed state of being in the present. This absolutely is the primary use of the verb in the NT especially in the writings of John.

He who believes [in the ongoing and continual sense] is not condemned. Since the word "believes" is present tense we know that the person is not condemned because he has faith in Christ.

What is the "anyone's work" is Paul speaking of?

Everlasting-Grace said:
so you are unwilling to give it all to christ, you must take a part yourself?

Again, They looked once..

They did not have to continue to believe..

A person who believes must continue to believe in Him and walk in dependent faith Does the fact that I must actively participate in this process happen make it about pride and self-will. I do not think yielding to the Spirit is "taking a part for myself." I am not a believer in "Reformed Theology" so I do not believe the will is totally helpless.

It was the Apostle Paul who told us to "walk in the Spirit" The biblical norm for ALL believers is that they walk in the Spirit: “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25, Romans 8:14). In other words, once the Spirit gives us life in the new birth (John 3:6), and WE MUST CONTINUE to live, day by day, in the Spirit. Some of the worst examples of Christians were the Reformers, men like Luther who talked about Christian virtue while slaughtering the Anabaptists.

I agree with much of what you are saying as well. I like your attempt to get to the heart of the scriptures

I think there is a problem in thinking we can only know Godby reading the Bible. And especially as regards your observation.

Those who have no Bible or are illiterate would then be lost.

God told us he is not found in buildings constructed by our hand.

So too I would say,he is not founding books printed as different versions and for centuries,were someone to think that is our only option.

God is all.

Better rethink that one. The Lord Jesus has the same seal we do.

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Cor 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

That verse talks about the quality of a saved person's work for the Lord to determine rewards.

It's not talking about people who live in sin and rebellion against God - such people that Kroogz talks about - "who went nowhere, did nothing, did not abide, fell away and never returned" - do not have the Holy Spirit and aren't saved even if they professed that God is their Lord and Savior at one time.


🥕

There is no "quality" involved.

We either produce DIVINE good or Skubala. Period.

Divine good is done through the Spirit. The believer who gives a tic-tac to someone through the Holy Spirit produced Divine Good.

The believer who gives 1 million dollars to someone through the Holy Spirit produced divine good.

The ash piles differ because many believers produce a LOT of skubala.

And.... You would be killed by the King and his men if you were running along the chariots preaching that sentiment to those who had the Kings seal.

Well thats the problem.

the only thing conditional about being saved is to receive Gods gift in faith.

I know this is a foreign concept to you. But that's the truth. any other means of trying to receive salvation will be rejected by God

No. It is NEVER a part of the discussion of how to be saved eternally.

If anything it is a discussion of how God changes us AFTER he adopts us as his kids and makes us new creatures

To what? Trust God and look. then they were healed completely?



lol. Here is the truth my friend.

people stop believing in a person when they person continuously lets them down. we do not just trust someone then decide to not trust them

But hey. I don't know. maybe God is not what you think he is so you think you may one day lose faith in his provision of eternity based on his son?

I don't know. But I know even in my darkest hour as a prodigal son, I never stopped thinking that God was not trustworthy in keeping his promise of eternal life.

He who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY.

that's where you idea false flat on its face.

If unbelief means a person is and always was in a state of condemnation (which it does) . then there is no scenario where a person who is in unbelief was in a state of condemnation, and fell back into it.

what you are doing is trying to make the word fit your belief system, and not force your belief system to agree with the word by trying to give yourself and out and not looking at all possibilities

Anyones work would be anything a person who is at the bema seat judgement has done in his life.

Have you done the word to serve self - it will be rewarded as ashes burned in the fire

if it was done to serve God or others, it will be rewarded as gold silver or precious stones.

the fact is after the persons life is judged and rewards are handed out. and a person has nothing to show for it by ashes. He himself will still be saved, even as through fire (think of a persons house that is on fire. and he runs through the fire to get out of the house. and when he is outside. he sits their naked while everything he has ever earned by his hard work is burned in the flame.

The person is naked. but he still survived, he was saved.

PS. No unbeliever will be at this judgment. They will be delivered to God. not raised by him, for the great white throne judgment. where no rewards will be handed out. and where everyone will be cast out

Yeah we see.

its all of you. Not of God.

Its you keeping yourself. Not God keeping you.

Good luck with that!

Yes I agree.

those who liv in sin and rebellion to God. as John said, has never seen or known God. They have never been saved.

These people will not be raised by Christ (john 6) they will be delivered to him (rev 20) as hades and the sea gives up the DEAD.

I highlight the word dead because these people were not born again. they were still dead in sin, they were never made alive in Christ.

the living will be at the BEMA judgment where they are rewarded or where their rewards are burned and they suffer loss.. I just pray I am not one that suffers loss.

Since you reject the language of Scripture re: being saved, what's conditional about sanctification?

How does He do this and why is it conditional since you call it conditional sanctification?

You must have returned. Does this mean that all do the same, or it doesn't matter as @Kroogz seemed to suggest? You suggest the same if I'm not mistaken.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.