Understanding God’s election
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My analogy is sound. It's only unsound to those who cannot see clearly that David was a type of the Son of David. It seems to me that you to this day suffer from satanic blindness from which you think you healed yourself by the power of your mighty "freewill".
And "each of us found our [own] humility...?
How would you know your own humility is any good in the eyes of God unless you consult scripture!? You most certainly do not have Mephibosheth's brand of humility. You couldn't even get yourself to confess that God's efficacious grace made the sole difference in your life between you (as a professed believer) and unbelievers.
And "each of us found our [own] humility...?
How would you know your own humility is any good in the eyes of God unless you consult scripture!? You most certainly do not have Mephibosheth's brand of humility. You couldn't even get yourself to confess that God's efficacious grace made the sole difference in your life between you (as a professed believer) and unbelievers.-
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If you did, then give the post number. Or if not, since the question in v. 23a is rhetorical, why can't you just tell us what the easy answer is: YES or NO! Is that too hard for you? And then explain how that answer applies to Israel in "b" part of the text. And how can "b" not have spiritual meaning that is closely related to part "a"? How can you say with a straight face that there may be no spiritual meaning to part "b" when the text goes on to sarcastically tell Israel: "Neither can you who are accustomed to doing evil". To state this in slightly different terms that even a 5-y.o. could understand, the prophet is telling Israel: Neither can you CHANGE who are accustomed to doing evil"! Israel was as accustomed to doing evil as the Ethiopian was accustomed to wearing his black skin or the leopard its spots! And again, just as both the Ethiopian and leopard were powerless to change what they ARE, so too was Israel powerless to change its ways!
At least I give PT some credit because he saw what was going on in Jer 13:23 and understood clearly that an analogy was being made; so while he was a little more courageous than you, his dumb reply to my question re 23a. was in the affirmative! He said that the answer was "yes" to the question because he thought it would take him off the hook for the analogy in 23b.
At least I give PT some credit because he saw what was going on in Jer 13:23 and understood clearly that an analogy was being made; so while he was a little more courageous than you, his dumb reply to my question re 23a. was in the affirmative! He said that the answer was "yes" to the question because he thought it would take him off the hook for the analogy in 23b.
The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)
Right in your own eyes. Nothing new. Nothing unique. I accept your assertions about yourself about as much as I accept your assertions about others or theology or philosophy or Scripture or anything else. Your tradition is warped and you're a sect of warped.
I have consulted Scripture, have likely looked at more than you of the mentions of humility I informed you about, ultimately view humility in a sense as recognition of and willing submission to authority and being teachable by and obedient to that authority (in Christ in Spirit), and thus see of vital importance commands and instruction from God in lieu of explaining away His commands and supporting some ill-informed modified tradition of interpretation that gives lip service to illusory concepts of volition and grace.
You're simply put, a joke, and your tradition and its terminology is rejected. The biblical terminology of theology would have to be addressed point by point from alpha to omega and from what I've seen you don't have the capability to go through Scripture doctrine by doctrine or verse by verse in context to have the real conversation. You flat-out run from any attempts to have such discussions and you cover your trail with fallacious argumentation and trash talk. We're not free to talk as I'd like to here, but playing games with you has come to an end. You completely lost anything nearly resembling cordial discussion with me when you put forth illusory volition and explained away God's commands made to the volition of His creatures. This is about as close to the fall in the Garden as we get IMO. Don't be concerned about His commands says the nachash... The nothingness of man - the hatred of God - the elect man on autopilot from beginning to end, you're even a problem for the TULIP group you are most aligned with.
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Right in your own eyes. Nothing new. Nothing unique. I accept your assertions about yourself about as much as I accept your assertions about others or theology or philosophy or Scripture or anything else. Your tradition is warped and you're a sect of warped.
And "each of us found our [own] humility...? How would you know your own humility is any good in the eyes of God unless you consult scripture!? You most certainly do not have Mephibosheth's brand of humility. You couldn't even get yourself to confess that God's efficacious grace made the sole difference in your life between you (as a professed believer) and unbelievers.
How would you know your own humility is any good in the eyes of God unless you consult scripture!? You most certainly do not have Mephibosheth's brand of humility. You couldn't even get yourself to confess that God's efficacious grace made the sole difference in your life between you (as a professed believer) and unbelievers.
You're simply put, a joke, and your tradition and its terminology is rejected. The biblical terminology of theology would have to be addressed point by point from alpha to omega and from what I've seen you don't have the capability to go through Scripture doctrine by doctrine or verse by verse in context to have the real conversation. You flat-out run from any attempts to have such discussions and you cover your trail with fallacious argumentation and trash talk. We're not free to talk as I'd like to here, but playing games with you has come to an end. You completely lost anything nearly resembling cordial discussion with me when you put forth illusory volition and explained away God's commands made to the volition of His creatures. This is about as close to the fall in the Garden as we get IMO. Don't be concerned about His commands says the nachash... The nothingness of man - the hatred of God - the elect man on autopilot from beginning to end, you're even a problem for the TULIP group you are most aligned with.
The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)
Nope, I'm done doing repetitive work for you. You can easily track this back through hyperlinks and try to muster up all the limited brain power you have to read and understand what the Prophet was sent to do. Your lack of comprehension is based in your nothingness of man modified TULIP presuppositions and inability to read and understand in context verses like Jer13:25 and lexical definitions I've provided.
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Nope, I'm done doing repetitive work for you. You can easily track this back through hyperlinks and try to muster up all the limited brain power you have to read and understand what the Prophet was sent to do. Your lack of comprehension is based in your nothingness of man modified TULIP presuppositions and inability to read and understand in context verses like Jer13:25 and lexical definitions I've provided.
I suppose a tiger can change their stripes, also! Wonders never cease with what these free willers come up
with in order to contradict and deny everything the Bible has to say about the estate of the natural man man.
Biblical truth concerning the natural man: The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Flesh serves the law of sin. Good itself does not dwell in me.
with in order to contradict and deny everything the Bible has to say about the estate of the natural man man.
Biblical truth concerning the natural man: The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Flesh serves the law of sin. Good itself does not dwell in me.
Ephesians 4 verses 17-18; Luke 6 verse 43; Jeremiah 10 verse 14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.
Ephesians 4 verses 17-18; Luke 6 verse 43; Jeremiah 10 verse 14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.
I think by now we know quite well that whatever is said of the natural man is largely contradicted and denied by the free will crowd. They ascribe to him characteristics and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man, which informs us that they are lacking in discernment in that regard. Thus they overthrow a multitude of Scriptures to cling to their fantasy and man-made tradition born of philosophy, to have the natural man receiving the spiritual things of God and comprehending the gospel even though Scripture says this does not happen. They have the natural man obeying even though Scripture says they are unable to. They have the slave to sin and lover of darkness who is taken captive to the will of the devil and blinded to the truth, choosing to believe that which is foolishness to him. In spite of Jesus saying it was not possible, they have the bad tree bringing forth the good fruit of faith in order to effectuate their salvation, because in the theology of free willers, the stony ground of the natural man's heart, which is incapable of growing the seed of God's Word, somehow grows it pre-circumcision. Instead of the multitude of times we are told from the beginning of the Bible to the very end that there are none good, in their theology, man is good enough. The free willer has the man who has no fear of God being in possession of wisdom which has its genesis in the fear of God. I don't know how the free willers are able in good conscience to keep clinging to their false doctrine in light of all the Scriptures that speak to the issues that contradict what they promote. Then they act like we have not been saying Jesus sets us free, that God makes it possible, just as Scriptures say. I suppose they must perpetuate this lie as much as any of the others they promote. Quite sad.
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The Reformed or “Calvinists,” as they are all too frequently identified, have been viewed as pairing almost dualistically “the nothingness of man” with “the overmastering power of God,” and, accordingly, as teaching a fundamentally predestinarian or deterministic theology—whether in utter accord with Calvin's thought or in a further, negative development of it. (p. 21)
If you lose the twisted nothingness of man focus and read the verse in context, you won't have to wonder:
NET Jeremiah 10:14 All these idolaters28 will prove to be stupid and ignorant. Every goldsmith will be disgraced by the idol he made. For the image he forges is merely a sham.29 There is no breath in any of those idols.30
Calvin's Commentaries: (My bold highlights. The rest of the commentary is found at the linked resource)
Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
14. Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
14. Stultus est omnis homo a scientia (vertunt alii, praescientia; sed perperam, meo judicio,) pudefactus est omnis conflator a sculptili; quia mendacium conflatile, et non est spiritus in illis.
Some too refinedly explain the beginning of this verse -- that their own subtlety or wisdom, which they arrogate, infatuates men, according to what Paul says, that men become vain in their minds, when they form an idea of God according to their own imagination. (Romans 1:21.) But the Prophet speaks more plainly, for he says, that all artificers were foolish The word lrnowledge is not to be taken here for knowledge of truth, but for the knowledge of artificers, whether carpenters or blacksmiths, or those who either melted or grayed or formed gods of wood, stone, and silver, as we may learn from the second clause of the verse. There is no difficulty as to what is meant, if we duly consider the words of the Prophet; he expresses the same thing in two ways; foolish, he says, are all our artificers; then he specifies one sort, every founder or melter, etc. We hence see that the Prophet does not use the word knowledge according to its strict meaning, but extends it to skill in workmanship. [13]
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If you lose the twisted nothingness of man focus and read the verse in context, you won't have to wonder:
NET Jeremiah 10:14 All these idolaters28 will prove to be stupid and ignorant. Every goldsmith will be disgraced by the idol he made. For the image he forges is merely a sham.29 There is no breath in any of those idols.30
NET Notes (Jer 10:14) (My bold highlights)
28 tn Heb "Every man." But in the context this is not a reference to all people without exception but to all idolaters. The referent is made explicit for the sake of clarity.
29 tn Or "nothing but a phony god"; Heb "a lie/falsehood."
30 tn Heb "There is no breath in them." The referent is made explicit so that no one will mistakenly take it to refer to the idolaters or goldsmiths.
Calvin's Commentaries: (My bold highlights. The rest of the commentary is found at the linked resource)
Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
14. Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
14. Stultus est omnis homo a scientia (vertunt alii, praescientia; sed perperam, meo judicio,) pudefactus est omnis conflator a sculptili; quia mendacium conflatile, et non est spiritus in illis.
Some too refinedly explain the beginning of this verse -- that their own subtlety or wisdom, which they arrogate, infatuates men, according to what Paul says, that men become vain in their minds, when they form an idea of God according to their own imagination. (Romans 1:21.) But the Prophet speaks more plainly, for he says, that all artificers were foolish The word lrnowledge is not to be taken here for knowledge of truth, but for the knowledge of artificers, whether carpenters or blacksmiths, or those who either melted or grayed or formed gods of wood, stone, and silver, as we may learn from the second clause of the verse. There is no difficulty as to what is meant, if we duly consider the words of the Prophet; he expresses the same thing in two ways; foolish, he says, are all our artificers; then he specifies one sort, every founder or melter, etc. We hence see that the Prophet does not use the word knowledge according to its strict meaning, but extends it to skill in workmanship. [13]
He’s sort of sayong gods word doesn’t make sense of you try to make everything a random hidden choice by god and no one has a choice . I don’t think it’s self worship to acknolwedge Gods word . Another example of what he is saying is
this is true because it’s written repeatedly but the whole idea of this “ hypergrace “ all based on Gods random choices doesn’t make any sense or becomes nonsensical and untrue
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11
this is either true or it’s a diversion and God makes random choices not based on anything people do
those two things can’t both be true. The idea of modern hypergrace doesn’t for the doctrine taught by Jesus and his apostles
How can one hear this word of the lord himself
““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
John 5:28-29 NIV
and then claim Gods random choice based only on his own Will ?
The God alone choosing independent of mans actions doesn’t hold water when someone reads very much of the bible at all considering what Jesus the lord and also his apostles said to those who would listen to him and then afterwards
“What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.”
Matthew 16:26-27 NIV
That fits like a glove from Jesus teachings to Paul’s
Jesus
“those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
jesus
“then he will reward each person according to what they have done.”
Paul
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
Romans 2:6-8 NIV
Paul
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
Do you see how this concept
“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
Galatians 6:7-9 NIV
sort of ruins the idea of a soveriegn choice tbat over rules our choice given by god ? Even this first principle of faith does
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
it isnt self worship to acknolwedge the truth set before us it becomes self awareness when we acknolwedge the truth. Revealing how much everyone needs to go to the lord and hear him or we are without hope.
The concept of we reap what we sow doesn’t fit with bypergrace and the secret chosen group who are already saved and have no choice. God predetermined this part in order to give us a chance to seek him and find him he doesn’t make our choice for us
“From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. ( <<he pre determined that stuff for this purpose>> ) God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
…..( speaks of idolatry ect ) ….
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.””
Acts 17:26-27, 30-31 NIV
He’s going to judge us all based on our own actions that’s why we need remission of our sins and to be clothed with Jesus Christ the righteous ……it’s why Jesus taught us this stuff because we are going to have to face him for our deeds but if we listen to him
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.””
Luke 6:36-38 NIV
That’s what the gospel of grace sounds like forgive and be forgiven judge not and be not judged be merciful and you will receive mercy ….and we can expect a merciful judgement
““Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Matthew 7:1-2 NIV
“Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, ( John 8:31-32) because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.”
James 2:12-13
It’s okay for us to learn from Jesus
this is true because it’s written repeatedly but the whole idea of this “ hypergrace “ all based on Gods random choices doesn’t make any sense or becomes nonsensical and untrue
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11
this is either true or it’s a diversion and God makes random choices not based on anything people do
those two things can’t both be true. The idea of modern hypergrace doesn’t for the doctrine taught by Jesus and his apostles
How can one hear this word of the lord himself
““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
John 5:28-29 NIV
and then claim Gods random choice based only on his own Will ?
The God alone choosing independent of mans actions doesn’t hold water when someone reads very much of the bible at all considering what Jesus the lord and also his apostles said to those who would listen to him and then afterwards
“What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.”
Matthew 16:26-27 NIV
That fits like a glove from Jesus teachings to Paul’s
Jesus
“those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
jesus
“then he will reward each person according to what they have done.”
Paul
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
Romans 2:6-8 NIV
Paul
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
Do you see how this concept
“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
Galatians 6:7-9 NIV
sort of ruins the idea of a soveriegn choice tbat over rules our choice given by god ? Even this first principle of faith does
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
it isnt self worship to acknolwedge the truth set before us it becomes self awareness when we acknolwedge the truth. Revealing how much everyone needs to go to the lord and hear him or we are without hope.
The concept of we reap what we sow doesn’t fit with bypergrace and the secret chosen group who are already saved and have no choice. God predetermined this part in order to give us a chance to seek him and find him he doesn’t make our choice for us
“From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. ( <<he pre determined that stuff for this purpose>> ) God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
…..( speaks of idolatry ect ) ….
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.””
Acts 17:26-27, 30-31 NIV
He’s going to judge us all based on our own actions that’s why we need remission of our sins and to be clothed with Jesus Christ the righteous ……it’s why Jesus taught us this stuff because we are going to have to face him for our deeds but if we listen to him
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.””
Luke 6:36-38 NIV
That’s what the gospel of grace sounds like forgive and be forgiven judge not and be not judged be merciful and you will receive mercy ….and we can expect a merciful judgement
““Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Matthew 7:1-2 NIV
“Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, ( John 8:31-32) because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.”
James 2:12-13
It’s okay for us to learn from Jesus
Ephesians 4 verses 17-18; Luke 6 verse 43; Jeremiah 10 verse 14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.
Mr. Studier, sir, you truly need to beg, borrow, steal, rent or borrow a CLUE! Don't you know that every unbeliever on the planet is an idolater by default!? How soon you have forgotten what Paul taught in Rom 1:21-22; Col 3:5. If any human being is not a born again child of God and worshiping Him alone, then this means that such person is worshiping something else or someone else and is, therefore, an idolater. There is no such thing on this planet as a morally/spiritually-neutral human being. EVERYONE has faith; for ALL believe in something and the object of their faith is invariably worshiped. Not only does Special Revelation teach us this, but Natural Revelation does, as well. If you had eyes to observe the world around you, you would see this truth clearly!
Thanks for proving once again just how superficial your faith is!
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